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Extremely high cadence

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Road Cycling
Published
18 March 2003
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29 March 2003
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Raptor
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  1. "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    above, you stated:

    A. Coggan: This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power
    doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high


    power

    Quoted message said:

    at a high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a
    physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.

    that is very different than what you just said: How is applying "good power across a wider range
    of rpms" any


    different

    Quoted message said:

    than being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either


    case,

    Quoted message said:

    it requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally


    peaks.

    ??

    In one case, I'm stating my opinion/experience, and in the other I'm trying to get you to clarify
    why you think we're talking about different things.

    Quoted message said:

    ++ I have and am stating: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good
    power across


    a

    Quoted message said:

    wider range of rpms.

    and you disagree????

    Perhaps I'm reading into what you mean by a "wider range of rpms", but yes, I disagree: I think that
    training at very high cadence (with low power) only benefits you when pedalling really, really,
    really fast.

    Let's put some numbers on things: like almost anybody else, a number of years in the off-season I've
    trained using a fixed gear on the road. Spinning down hills at 150+ rpm makes me better at not
    fighting myself when turning the cranks that fast, which A) helps me achieve even higher cadences,
    and B) helps me make a bit more power when pedaling so fast. However, I don't think that sort of
    training per se does diddly-squat for my ability to make power at, say, 110 rpm (since I don't have
    any problem staying smooth at that cadence anyway).

    Andy Coggan

  2. Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have been connected to various
    power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of miles on a fixed gear.
    Does higher cadence improve racing? I know plenty of sucessful riders/racers who can't spin to save
    their life, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Probably depends more on the physical/physiological
    make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence work does not improve
    your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big gear/overgear training situation.
    Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at a high speed/high
    cadence. In my experience anyways Dave

    "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dave,

    You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if you quote me, then please
    separate your beliefs from my statements.

    Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in
    any range".

    is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post ):
    "What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste of time, or even
    counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?"

    In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?

    Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
    ability to deliver horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from
    improved pedaling technique = more power output.

    If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much time in a lab.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ugh, wake up!

    Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a


    person

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.

    Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
    horsepower to a wider range of rpms.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have


    a smooth spin" That is

    Quoted message said:

    ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to


    apply good power across a

    Quoted message said:

    wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do


    with power output in any

    Quoted message said:

    range

    Dave


  3. In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    In article m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54 said:

    Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?

    Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

    damn! that must mean you are an expert.


    Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

    can't cut off the lard can it?

    Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay though.
    How about you?

    -WG

  4. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do
    > they?

    Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

    damn! that must mean you are an expert.


    Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

    can't cut off the lard can it?

    Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay
    though. How about you?

    -WG

    just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

  5. Some good info summarized by me thus: Yes, it helps but not much for the typical rider/racer.
    Spinning is improved by faster spinning during practice, and having spun fast you are more able to
    spin slightly faster in a race/ride when needed.

    But world-class sprinters do it as a formal part of their training. My reading indicates that it's
    to build the neuromuscular performance of the legs. (Meaning their muscles get so they can spin fast
    without breaking or screwing up, right?) Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to
    impress cute chicks on the next bike in spin class?

    I will soon be teaching spin classes, so I'm thankful for the detailed discussion.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

  6. In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
    > In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    > > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do
    > > they?
    >
    > Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

    damn! that must mean you are an expert.


    Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    > I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

    can't cut off the lard can it?

    Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay
    though. How about you?

    -WG

    just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

    3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

  7. Ok, bring on the studies already. Otherwise you're just expressing opinions and anecdotal evidence.
    First I gotta figure out what the issue
    is...(fatigued).

    James P. Spooner

    "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have


    been connected to various

    Quoted message said:

    power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of


    miles on a fixed gear.

    Quoted message said:

    Does higher cadence improve racing? I know plenty of sucessful


    riders/racers who can't spin to save

    Quoted message said:

    their life, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Probably depends more on


    the physical/physiological

    Quoted message said:

    make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence


    work does not improve

    Quoted message said:

    your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big


    gear/overgear training situation.

    Quoted message said:

    Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at


    a high speed/high

    Quoted message said:

    cadence. In my experience anyways Dave

    "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dave,

    You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if


    you

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    quote me, then please separate your beliefs from my statements.

    Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    any range".

    is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post
    ): "What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is


    it a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    waste of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect


    of my

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    riding/racing?"

    In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?

    Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
    ability to


    deliver

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from improved pedaling
    technique = more power output.

    If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much


    time

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in a lab.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...

    Quoted message said:

    > ugh, wake up!
    >
    > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    person

    Quoted message said:

    > to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique


    enables a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > person to apply their horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to


    have

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a smooth spin" That is

    Quoted message said:

    ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    apply good power across a

    Quoted message said:

    wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do


    with power output in any

    Quoted message said:

    range

    Dave



  8. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:


    just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

    3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

    Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts (unlike some of the Fatties around here).

  9. In article said:

    Some good info summarized by me thus: Yes, it helps but not much for the typical rider/racer.
    Spinning is improved by faster spinning during practice, and having spun fast you are more able to
    spin slightly faster in a race/ride when needed.

    But world-class sprinters do it as a formal part of their training. My reading indicates that it's
    to build the neuromuscular performance of the legs. (Meaning their muscles get so they can spin
    fast without breaking or screwing up, right?)

    Alot of that is teaching the muscles not to oppose each other during the movement. I forget the
    term for that. Inhibition? When I was training for sprints I knew I needed to get to about
    140-145 rpm's for the speed I wanted but I didn't find much use in doing more than about 150
    rpm's during training.

    Quoted message said:

    Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to impress cute chicks on the next bike in
    spin class?

    I will soon be teaching spin classes, so I'm thankful for the detailed discussion.

    You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
    keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more useful
    to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at 100-120
    rpm's than at 120+.

    -WG

  10. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

    Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts

    I thought you'd add, "anymore." Or are you saying you didn't like them before the donut
    ride, either?

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

    Quoted message said:


    just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

    3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

    Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts (unlike some of the Fatties around here).

    I haven't had one in about a year-since I was at Dunkin Donuts in CT. Same for dead cow on a bun.
    Ice cream however...

    -WG

  12. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
    keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
    useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at
    100-120 rpm's than at 120+.

    Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear to
    be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn calories in
    the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, Robert Chung

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
    keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
    useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph)
    at 100-120 rpm's than at 120+.

    Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
    to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
    calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

    I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.

    -WG

  14. "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Robert Chung

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes)
    while keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be
    more useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast
    (mph) at 100-120 rpm's than at 120+.

    Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
    to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
    calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

    I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.

    Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

  15. "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

    Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts

    I thought you'd add, "anymore." Or are you saying you didn't like them before the donut
    ride, either?

    why do you think I threw up?

    the 21 donut salute.

  16. "Raptor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to impress cute chicks on the next bike in
    spin class?

    So you can impress the readers of r.b.r. by your ability to spin 220 rpm on rollers.

    Andy Coggan

  17. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

    Perhaps this will help: poundy.comwwcards.html

  18. Dave <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have been connected to
    : various power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of miles on a
    : fixed gear.

    A good lab could be useful for studying effects of cadence training, because you can eliminate
    random variables in a lab setup. Then again "good technique" develops over years, and you generally
    can't run lab experiments for years on an end.

    : make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence work does not improve
    : your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big gear/overgear training situation.
    : Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at a high speed/high
    : cadence.

    Whoa, whoa, makes sense but is a bit confusing. Does "power output" really mean power output at a
    given effort level, or power output at the maximum effort level (ie. for just a few seconds if
    even that)?

    Your statement seems to be supported by the age-old thing called the echo phenomenon of training:
    turning big gears at a high cadence improves power output at a high effort level, because, duh, it
    essentially is training at a high effort level.

    Then again we can make the statement more specific by pointing out that highest power is produced by
    turning big gears at a high cadence, and in addition, the most effective way to train for this is by
    training in those specific conditions: turning big gears at a high cadence. In other words, there is
    different neural, metabolic, muscular etc stuff involved under these conditions, which makes it
    different from just turning big gears or pedalling at a high cadence - your legs and body will adapt
    to the workload differently in each case.

    : Dave

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fi~rvaranka varis at no spam please iki fi

  19. Robert Chung said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
    keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
    useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at
    100-120 rpm's than at 120+.

    Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
    to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
    calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

    Heh. That sounds about right. An hour is way too short for a bike ride IMO, either indoors or out.
    But you do what you've got time for, and in my case, what they'll pay me for.

    I like your point though. Suggestions for spin class routines that will promote efficient power
    production WHILE maintaining all the inefficient cram-work-into-a-short-time aspects? Sounds
    self-defeating to me, so whoever comes up with good ideas wins a prize.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

  20. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Robert Chung

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
    to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
    calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

    I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.

    Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

    There are several racers-in-training in the classes I currently attend and am studying to teach, as
    well as quite a few serious riders like myself. (I expect to dabble in racing this season, once my
    fitness gets where I like it. Going serious is just too much work.)

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

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