Ewwww....

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Tom Sherman said:

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Yep.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Wow.

There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying to get
with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
cases.

For aerodynamic reasons, it's best to have a tire that matches the width of
the rim. US Postal was very big on this. Rims at the time were fairly
narrow, and they *could* have chosen to go with a narrower tire to match the
rim they were provided with (by Trek). But instead they asked (ok, demanded)
for wider rims to match their 22-23c tubulars.

Saying 19mm tires have no purpose anywhere but a velodrome isn't true, but
they certainly don't serve the purpose most think (delivering greater
efficiency on normal roads). The OP was probably just reacting to that
still-very-large group of people who think narrower always equals faster.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Jay Beattie said:

On Feb 6, 3:59 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Feb 6, 1:58 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Feb 6, 3:12 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> I guesss you don't recall the early (1983-84) C'dales, eh? Some of the
> ugliest bikes ever made, they looked like they were made in a basement
> by a drunk in a hurry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had one of those. A metallic sea-foam green one (Built up with
Ofmega Mistral, Nisi Laser, Concor, Modolo, and white Looks). When I
took it to Italy, the folks there called it  "the pregnant" bike.

Quoted message said:

It wasn't only the "fat tubes"; the early C'dales had hideous, lumpy
welds and tubes that were bowed during the heat treating process
(alignment was kept reasonable by putting the frame in a jig during
the heat treating, so a frame could be sorta in alignment but still
have noticeably bowed tubes). There were other issues, as well. By
~1986, the welds, at least, looked better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the later models slimmed down a bit, and other bikes widened,
so they don't seem so huge now, but back in the day it was like a bike
from space.

Quoted message said:

As fatter tubes became the norm, the early C'dales no longer stood
out.

Quoted message said:

I had forgotten just how really ugly the early C'dale production was
until about 4-5 years ago, when I came across a guy riding an '83
ST500, their first production bike. "Ewwww", indeed!

I had one, and it rode better than my custom steel frame and weighed
a pound less.  In a 63cm frame, the big tubes gave it a nice
proportionality.  I broke the derailleur hanger in a freak accident
and replaced the frame free on warranty with a spiffy Black Lightening
frame that I raced and rode for twenty years until it fell apart.

Agreed, the early C'dales had some merits. But, the early production,
with the bowed tubes and laughably lumpy welds, were very, very ugly.

Quoted message said:

Compared to current production Al frames, those things were bomb
proof.

Such frames are still available, but not from Cannondale. And, they
are quite inexpensive, too.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Quoted message said:

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Quoted message said:

Wow.

There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying to get
with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
cases.

I've seen Fasgrip 19s on a couple of basement fresh early 80s bikes.
They ride very nicely. I'd hate to encounter broken pavement with
them.

Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

I had forgotten just how really ugly the early C'dale production was
until about 4-5 years ago, when I came across a guy riding an '83
ST500, their first production bike. "Ewwww", indeed!

I have a mid-'80s ST500; I think it's an '85. It must be from after
they sorted out their manufacturing issues, because it's a perfectly
nice-looking bike. It even looks slender and classic compared to my
'90s Cannondales.

I have noticed that the late '80s and early '90s seems to have been
the sweet spot for Cannondale's weld finish quality. Recent C'dale
frames have their welds smoothed down, but not filleted into the
adjoining tubes like they were before. The new way is probably just
as strong and easier to keep from undercutting the tubing, but it sure
doesn't look as nice.

Chalo

On Feb 6, 2:01 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:> ...

Quoted message said:

I had ridiculously narrow Avocet Fasgrip 19's too. The 80's was one of
those transition periods where things looked particularly Frankenstein
as old blended with new.

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome. At any
pressure that can be used on real roads, a 23 mm tire will have lower
combined rolling and aerodynamic resistance than anything narrower
(assuming similar casing and tread), even at the speeds professionals ride.

I was 15 then and I guess I weighed about 195lbs. I used clear
polyurethane tubes. The Nisi Laser rims were very narrow with an aero-
like trapezoidal section. I don't recall pinch flats being a problem.

Joseph

landotter said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:01:20 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow.

Quoted message said:

There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying toget
with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
cases.

I've seen Fasgrip 19s on a couple of basement fresh early 80s bikes.
They ride very nicely. I'd hate to encounter broken pavement with
them.

NYC in the 80's sure didn't have mirror smooth asphalt everywhere, but
the bike and tires served me well. My next bike was a steel Tommasini
with Vittoria CX Seta tubulars. That was quite a different ride!

Joseph

Jay Beattie said:

Chalo said:

[re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
all, Schwinn. But they did. I think their track record speaks louder
than their press release about where this is all going.

Schwinn was never a premium brand. It was always a plumbing pipe,
boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production. I think that
the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
Varsity I ever rode.

Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
price categories. Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
great numbers. Their competition? Not so much.

On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
proportion to the observable quality of their production. This must
have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
Netherlands exhibits today). But it would be inaccurate to say that
there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.

It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
_today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
might have among the buying public.

Quoted message said:

And Dorel says in its press release that it is
going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
offerings.

We'll see. That would be inconsistent with their business practices
up to now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And have no
doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
at Wally World, they will do that.

True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins? That does not
make sense. Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
effort to increase its margins.

Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin. That appears to be
exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand. It also appears to be
why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
Murray, which is another Dorel brand.

Quoted message said:

This is a very common way to go.
Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover and maintains those brands.
Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
other examples.

I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
juice out of.

Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
come to understand what those names indicate. The Fiesta became the
Festiva, and then the Aspire. The Tempo became the Contour. Those
cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
overwhelming suckiness. Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Chalo

Scott Gordo said:

MattB said:

Scott Gordo said:

Never been big into Cannondales, but no company deserves this:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Cannondale announces acquisition by Dorel Industries, Ltd.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cannondale announced that it has been acquired by Dorel Industries,
Ltd., a Montreal, Canada-based 'global consumer products company' with
US$1.8B in total sales last year. Dorel purchased Cannondale from a
division of Pegasus Capital Advisors for a reported US$190-200M in
cash but the final value of the transaction will be determined pending
the report of Cannondale's annual earnings ending June 30, 2008. Also
included in the sale is Canada-based cycling, running, and triathlon
clothing manufacturer Sugoi Performance Apparel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dorel adds Cannondale to its impressive portfolio of bicycle holdings
which already includes Pacific Cycle, parent company of the GT,
Mongoose, and Schwinn brand names. With this most recent acquisition,
Dorel will now reorganize its so-called Recreational/Leisure segment
into two distinct bicycle divisions: one to specifically address the
needs of the independent bicycle dealer (IBD) channel and the other
dealing exclusively with mass market, or 'big box', outlets such as
Wal-Mart....":

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rest of article athttp://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/news/02-05.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scott

Quoted message said:

A fate worse than death. "To the PAIN!"

Quoted message said:

Matt- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Seriously. I've never owned a Cdale nor swooned over one, but, man,
this news made me throw up in my mouth a little. We have entered the
age of the Wallondale.

/s

Why the hell do you think I have been touting boutique builders for so
long? The writing has been on the wall for years and is getting even
bigger. Support the little guys because that's the only place we'll
get true quality anymore.

JD

Chalo said:

Jay Beattie said:

Chalo wrote:

[re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
all, Schwinn.  But they did.  I think their track record speaks louder
than their press release about where this is all going.

Quoted message said:

Schwinn was never a premium brand.  It was always a plumbing pipe,
boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production.   I think that
the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
Varsity I ever rode.

Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
price categories.  Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
great numbers.  Their competition?  Not so much.

On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
proportion to the observable quality of their production.  This must
have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
Netherlands exhibits today).  But it would be inaccurate to say that
there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.

It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
_today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
might have among the buying public.

Quoted message said:

And Dorel says in its press release that it is
going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
offerings.

We'll see.  That would be inconsistent with their business practices
up to now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And have no
doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
at Wally World, they will do that.

Quoted message said:

True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins?  That does not
make sense.  Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
effort to increase its margins.

Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin.  That appears to be
exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand.  It also appears to be
why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
Murray, which is another Dorel brand.

Quoted message said:

This is a very common way to go.
Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover  and maintains those brands.
Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
other examples.

I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
juice out of.

Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
come to understand what those names indicate.  The Fiesta became the
Festiva, and then the Aspire.  The Tempo became the Contour.  Those
cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
overwhelming suckiness.  Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Some people see the Fordification of Jag as a good thing -- a sleek
exterior, decent wiring and no oil leaks!

I know what you are saying about Schwinn, but that brand was already
beaten down before it was bought at fire sale by Pacific. There was
nothing left of it except the goodwill of baby-boomers who had warm
and fuzzy feelings about their first boat anchor bikes. Even before
the first bankrupcy, Schwinn was outsourcing to Japan and was
struggling to hold on to its market. It's dealer network was falling
apart, and people were looking for lighter imports -- including me. I
dumped my Varsity for a Gitane in '69 -- which cost the same as a
Varsity. Schwinn was shorthand for clunker after that. My Gitane
would still be around had it not been stolen.

But I won't pick nits. You could be right. We'll have to check
Walmart in a year to see if Dorel remains true to its PR. -- Jay
Beattie.

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison. There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Tom Sherman said:

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Wow.

Since the testing that has been done determined that the lower rolling
resistance of the 23-mm tires more than made up for the slightly greater
aerodynamic drag and weight compared to narrower tires as pressures
usable on the road, what would be the point of narrower tires? More
pinch flats, harsher ride, and worse handling on loose surfaces combined
with slower overall speed? Wow, indeed.

The velodrome is a different matter, since the very smooth surfaces
allow for very high inflation pressures, so the narrower tires would
likely offer some speed advantage.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

What was the big deal with Jaguar automobiles?
They had a good racing team.
They were sought after for their symbolism.
They had mystique and reputation.
I also heard that you needed two,
so one could be in the shop.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

What was the big deal with Jaguar automobiles?

The E-type was a piece of automotive art.

Quoted message said:

They had a good racing team.

In general, manufacturers that win at racing are doing something
right.

Quoted message said:

I also heard that you needed two,
so one could be in the shop.

Many of the sporty cars made in GB were that way. An

And quite a few Italian cars of the era.

The early E-type Jag was just a splendidly beautiful car.

E.P.

Tom Sherman said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Tom Sherman said:

19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Wow.

Since the testing that has been done determined that the lower rolling
resistance of the 23-mm tires more than made up for the slightly greater
aerodynamic drag and weight compared to narrower tires as pressures
usable on the road, what would be the point of narrower tires? More
pinch flats, harsher ride, and worse handling on loose surfaces combined
with slower overall speed? Wow, indeed.

The velodrome is a different matter, since the very smooth surfaces
allow for very high inflation pressures, so the narrower tires would
likely offer some speed advantage.

Thanks for mixing in some disinformation. Between two tires of equal
construction in tersm of casing and tread at 19 and 23, the 23 will
have lower rolling resistance. But 19s can and sometimes are built
with thinner casing and that will roll faster than a comparable 23.

So for a very light rider (women in particular) on smooth roads, in
tirme trials, the narrower tire can and often is a better choice.

Andre Jute said:

Chalo said:

Jay Beattie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I take away from the press release is that Pacific Cycles will
continue with its low-end bikes through high volume dealers, and
Cannondale will continue in its current niche selling higher quality
bikes through LBS.

Quoted message said:

I think we can expect a major expansion of Cannondale's recent
practice of having some of its frames manufactured overseas. An
aluminum Cannondale used to be a qualitatively different thing than an
aluminum Trek, Giant, Redline, etc. That's probably going to
change.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you believe the
press release, Cannondale is not headed for Walmart, and it would not
make sense to devalue the brand by selling it mass market.

Quoted message said:

It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
all, Schwinn. But they did. I think their track record speaks louder
than their press release about where this is all going.

Quoted message said:

If Dorel/Pacific think it is better for the bottom line to keep the
Cannondale brand exclusive to the LBS market, then they will. If they
think it will be more profitable for the brand to be retailed through
nationwide sporting goods chain stores, they'll do that. And have no
doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
at Wally World, they will do that.

Quoted message said:

What I would not count on in any case is for the new owners to
continue to uphold the few quality distinctions Cannondale has managed
to retain-- or USA frame production, for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Chalo

Is Cannondale so distinguished a brand that it is worth saving? (This
is not a rhetorical question; I just know nothing about Cannondale.)

If you don't know, are you just posting to hear yourself type?

Quoted message said:

Is it necessarily a bad thing to kick a sliding brand around a bit?
(This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer. It is, No.)

There are good conglomerates and bad conglomerates. Some of the
world's finest bikes come from good conglomerates.

A few decades ago, Raleigh was [censored], it's bikes were [censored], it's
reputation was [censored]. It was sold to a conglomerate who thought they
could milk the name. They came a cropper. Raleigh was sold to a good
conglomerate and now the name is slowly coming to mean something
again.

Perhaps Cannondale comes out of the process leaner, meaner and once
more honest, two or three owners down the road. If not, is it really
such a hardship that another lowball bike assembler has bitten the
dust?

Andre Jute
Economist & Darwinist

Pegasus is selling the company for more than three times as much as
they paid to get it out of bankruptcy in 2003. Quality has been
steadily improving, and the fact that some of their goofy proprietary
hardware (BB-30 for example) is becoming standard for other
manufacturers puts them in a very respected position. The bankruptcy,
by the way, was caused entirely by the addition of a motorsports
division. So this is hardly a sliding brand, and the process to make
it "leaner, meaner and once more honest" happened five years ago.
This is just a case of investors cashing out.

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute said:

On Feb 6, 1:45 am, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What I take away from the press release is that Pacific Cycles will
> continue with its low-end bikes through high volume dealers, and
> Cannondale will continue in its current niche selling higher quality
> bikes through LBS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think we can expect a major expansion of Cannondale's recent
practice of having some of its frames manufactured overseas.  An
aluminum Cannondale used to be a qualitatively different thing than an
aluminum Trek, Giant, Redline, etc.  That's probably going to
change.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If you believe the
> press release, Cannondale is not headed for Walmart, and it would not
> make sense to devalue the brand by selling it mass market.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
all, Schwinn.  But they did.  I think their track record speaks louder
than their press release about where this is all going.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If Dorel/Pacific think it is better for the bottom line to keep the
Cannondale brand exclusive to the LBS market, then they will.  If they
think it will be more profitable for the brand to be retailed through
nationwide sporting goods chain stores, they'll do that.  And have no
doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
at Wally World, they will do that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I would not count on in any case is for the new owners to
continue to uphold the few quality distinctions Cannondale has managed
to retain-- or USA frame production, for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chalo

Quoted message said:

Is Cannondale so distinguished a brand that it is worth saving? (This
is not a rhetorical question; I just know nothing about Cannondale.)

If you don't know, are you just posting to hear yourself type?

Quoted message said:

Is it necessarily a bad thing to kick a sliding brand around a bit?
(This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer. It is, No.)

Quoted message said:

There are good conglomerates and bad conglomerates. Some of the
world's finest bikes come from good conglomerates.

Quoted message said:

A few decades ago, Raleigh was [censored], it's bikes were [censored], it's
reputation was [censored]. It was sold to a conglomerate who thought they
could milk the name. They came a cropper. Raleigh was sold to a good
conglomerate and now the name is slowly coming to mean something
again.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps Cannondale comes out of the process leaner, meaner and once
more honest, two or three owners down the road. If not, is it really
such a hardship that another lowball bike assembler has bitten the
dust?

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
Economist & Darwinist

Pegasus is selling the company for more than three times as much as
they paid to get it out of bankruptcy in 2003.  Quality has been
steadily improving, and the fact that some of their goofy proprietary
hardware (BB-30 for example) is becoming standard for other
manufacturers puts them in a very respected position.  The bankruptcy,
by the way, was caused entirely by the addition of a motorsports
division.  So this is hardly a sliding brand, and the process to make
it "leaner, meaner and once more honest" happened five years ago.
This is just a case of investors cashing out.- Hide quoted text -

Absolutely correct. Pegasus is a venture capital LLP and was the
primary creditor of Cannondale. It was secured by all the assets of
the corporation, and it was first in line in bankruptcy. It was in it
purely for the money -- but it was also smart and understood that by
preserving the brand and building it up, it would get more money.
That is my point about Dorel. Even assuming that it is in it just for
the money, there is money to be made by preserving the brand. There is
also quick, short term money in trashing the brand at Walmart -- which
is Chalo's point. It will be interesting to see which road it takes.
-- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Chalo said:

Jay Beattie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chalo wrote:

Quoted message said:

[re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
> all, Schwinn.  But they did.  I think their track record speaks louder
> than their press release about where this is all going.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Schwinn was never a premium brand.  It was always a plumbing pipe,
boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production.   I think that
the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
Varsity I ever rode.

Quoted message said:

Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
price categories.  Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
great numbers.  Their competition?  Not so much.

Quoted message said:

On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
proportion to the observable quality of their production.  This must
have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
Netherlands exhibits today).  But it would be inaccurate to say that
there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.

Quoted message said:

It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
_today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
might have among the buying public.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Dorel says in its press release that it is
going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
offerings.

Quoted message said:

We'll see.  That would be inconsistent with their business practices
up to now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> And have no
> doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
> at Wally World, they will do that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins?  That does not
make sense.  Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
effort to increase its margins.

Quoted message said:

Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin.  That appears to be
exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand.  It also appears to be
why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
Murray, which is another Dorel brand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a very common way to go.
Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover  and maintains those brands.
Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
other examples.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
juice out of.

Quoted message said:

Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
come to understand what those names indicate.  The Fiesta became the
Festiva, and then the Aspire.  The Tempo became the Contour.  Those
cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
overwhelming suckiness.  Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.

Quoted message said:

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Some people see the Fordification of Jag as a good thing -- a sleek
exterior, decent wiring and no oil leaks!

I know what you are saying about Schwinn, but that brand was already
beaten down before it was bought at fire sale by Pacific. There was
nothing left of it except the goodwill of baby-boomers who had warm
and fuzzy feelings about their first boat anchor bikes.  Even before
the first bankrupcy, Schwinn was outsourcing to Japan and was
struggling to hold on to its market. It's dealer network was falling
apart, and people were looking for lighter imports -- including me. I
dumped my Varsity for a Gitane in '69 -- which cost the same as a
Varsity.  Schwinn was shorthand for clunker after that. My Gitane
would still be around had it not been stolen.

But I won't pick nits.  You could be right.  We'll have to check
Walmart in a year to see if Dorel remains true to its PR. -- Jay
Beattie.

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison.  There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, after Schwinn's first sale they were doing some pretty neat
stuff. They purchased Yeti, who built the high end aluminum "Home
Grown" frames of the late 90's. Serotta built their Paramount ti and
steel road frames, and their upper-to-mid range bikes were nice
overseas 853 steel frames while everyone else was using aluminum. I
don't remember who was running the company then, but they were putting
out some pretty neat stuff and I think that their shops were generally
happy. Once Pacific took over I the Schwinn dealer I knew threw in the
towel as there wasn't enough to differentiate their bikes with those
in the big box stores. Their high end stuff does look like nice stuff
(and may gain from the economy of scale of belonging to a huge brand,
but I have yet to see one in person or in a shop.

The market for their 1950's-70's is still in great shape though. I
garbage pick, fix up and sell them all the time. Why? Because they're
simple, fun, relatively cheap, built to last, and look good.

/s

Scott Gordo said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Feb 6, 4:11 pm, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Chalo wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
> > all, Schwinn.  But they did.  I think their track record speaks louder
> > than their press release about where this is all going.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Schwinn was never a premium brand.  It was always a plumbing pipe,
> boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
> was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
> ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
> bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
> Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
> shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production.   I think that
> the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
> Varsity I ever rode.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
price categories.  Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
great numbers.  Their competition?  Not so much.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
proportion to the observable quality of their production.  This must
have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
Netherlands exhibits today).  But it would be inaccurate to say that
there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
_today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
might have among the buying public.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> And Dorel says in its press release that it is
> going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
> offerings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We'll see.  That would be inconsistent with their business practices
up to now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > And have no
> > doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
> > at Wally World, they will do that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
> the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins?  That does not
> make sense.  Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looksto
> be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
> effort to increase its margins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin.  That appears to be
exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand.  It also appears to be
why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
Murray, which is another Dorel brand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> This is a very common way to go.
> Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover  and maintains those brands.
> Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
> other examples.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
juice out of.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
come to understand what those names indicate.  The Fiesta became the
Festiva, and then the Aspire.  The Tempo became the Contour.  Those
cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
overwhelming suckiness.  Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Quoted message said:

Some people see the Fordification of Jag as a good thing -- a sleek
exterior, decent wiring and no oil leaks!

Quoted message said:

I know what you are saying about Schwinn, but that brand was already
beaten down before it was bought at fire sale by Pacific. There was
nothing left of it except the goodwill of baby-boomers who had warm
and fuzzy feelings about their first boat anchor bikes.  Even before
the first bankrupcy, Schwinn was outsourcing to Japan and was
struggling to hold on to its market. It's dealer network was falling
apart, and people were looking for lighter imports -- including me. I
dumped my Varsity for a Gitane in '69 -- which cost the same as a
Varsity.  Schwinn was shorthand for clunker after that. My Gitane
would still be around had it not been stolen.

Quoted message said:

But I won't pick nits.  You could be right.  We'll have to check
Walmart in a year to see if Dorel remains true to its PR. -- Jay
Beattie.

Quoted message said:

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison.  There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).- Hide quoted text-

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Actually, after Schwinn's first sale they were doing some pretty neat
stuff. They purchased Yeti, who built the high end aluminum "Home
Grown" frames of the late 90's. Serotta built their Paramount ti and
steel road frames, and their upper-to-mid range bikes were nice
overseas 853 steel frames while everyone else was using aluminum. I
don't remember who was running the company then, but they were putting
out some pretty neat stuff and I think that their shops were generally
happy. Once Pacific took over I the Schwinn dealer I knew threw in the
towel as there wasn't enough to differentiate their bikes with those
in the big box stores. Their high end stuff does look like nice stuff
(and may gain from the economy of scale of belonging to a huge brand,
but I have yet to see one in person or in a shop.

The market for their 1950's-70's is still in great shape though. I
garbage pick, fix up and sell them all the time. Why? Because they're
simple, fun, relatively cheap, built to last, and look good.

I think the models you are talking about (the 853 and Ti Serotta
Paramount) were in the very late 90s while Schwinn was owned by
Questor Partners -- who bought from Zell/Chilmark (who bought it out
of bankruptcy). You are right that they were coming up with some
interesting bikes -- which is doubly interesting since they were owned
by Questor, a turn around capital company. I guess they couldn't get
them turned around with the interesting bikes, IMO, probably because
the brand loyalty was in the low end market. I think Pacific
understood where the brand loyalty/value was and catered to that
market -- for better or for worse. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison. There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).

I saw a Madison at a local bike shop and I really liked the retro
graphics treatment. The chrome looked too thin and cheesy to be
retro, but it was nice that they tried. The fork looked sort of
steroid-enhanced, too. But all in all, it seemed like a nicely turned-
out bike and a tasteful way to refer back to Schwinn's glory days.
Better than the average fashion fixie, for sure.

Chalo

"Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison. There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).

I saw a Madison at a local bike shop and I really liked the retro
graphics treatment. The chrome looked too thin and cheesy to be
retro, but it was nice that they tried. The fork looked sort of
steroid-enhanced, too. But all in all, it seemed like a nicely turned-
out bike and a tasteful way to refer back to Schwinn's glory days.
Better than the average fashion fixie, for sure.

Chalo

My first was a Schwinn and my last is a Schwinn. I don't know about glory,
but my latest does everything I need done:

http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=422

My ex-racer son spent 18 times the price of mine for his serious mountain
bike. Trek? Made here in Tempe, AZ.