Evidence backing L4 20 min duration



peterwright

New Member
Mar 5, 2003
533
0
0
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.

Can you point me to any literature that backs up the thinking I have outlined re >15mins for L4 to push up FTP as opposed to shorter 5-7 min ints.

Thanks

Peter
 
peterwright said:
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.

Can you point me to any literature that backs up the thinking I have outlined re >15mins for L4 to push up FTP as opposed to shorter 5-7 min ints.

Thanks

Peter
Personally i would say that L4 intervals need to be 15-20 mins depending on your current fitness levels. 5 minute intervals should be level 5 or 6 with a 1:1 ratio.
 
NJK said:
Personally i would say that L4 intervals need to be 15-20 mins depending on your current fitness levels. 5 minute intervals should be level 5 or 6 with a 1:1 ratio.

As I said above - that is my thinking.
 
peterwright said:
As I said above - that is my thinking.

Evidence is that people can do them at L4 for up to 5-6 X 20min and suffer no ill consequences. doing 15-20 5 min efforts at threshold would drive me nuts.

And then people can tolerate a higher level of L5 work doing intervals of 5min for 5-6 reps.

It's all aerobic.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
peterwright said:
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.

Can you point me to any literature that backs up the thinking I have outlined re >15mins for L4 to push up FTP as opposed to shorter 5-7 min ints.

Thanks

Peter
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/optimizeendurance.html

Is this any good to you?
 
peterwright said:
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.

Can you point me to any literature that backs up the thinking I have outlined re >15mins for L4 to push up FTP as opposed to shorter 5-7 min ints.

Thanks

Peter
Why are you bothering debating him? :)

Anyways, I am fairly certain, but haven't bothered to read them lately as it's mostly in the allen/coggan book, that this is answered in the six articles at the midweek club articles link.
 
When performing intervals or repeats aimed at raising LT, my standard recommendation is to either 1) make each effort at least 15 min in duration, or 2) keep the rest period between them very short (i.e., 1 min, or ideally even less), so as to trick the body into thinking it is more of a continuous effort. That recommendation is based upon two things:

1) my own experience in training myself and others using intervals of 5 to 20 min duration, which indicates that longer efforts are more effective, and

2) the observation in the scientific literature that short intervals generally do not result in an increase in the respiratory capacity of type I muscle fibers, even though such fibers clearly are recruited during such activity, e.g.,:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...st_uids=134623&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

Based on the above, my working hypothesis is that the signal for mitochondrial biogenesis is related to both the energy "deficit" that is created and the time for which it is maintained, akin to the notion that the tension-time integral is an important determinant of muscle fatigue. This would explain why, at least in my experience, shorter efforts aren't as effective as longer efforts in raising LT, even if the intensity and total volume of work are held constant.

EDIT: I might add that John Verheul has independently arrived at the same conclusion re. point #1, i.e., intervals of 12 min or longer seem to work better for him/his clients than shorter efforts.
 
peterwright said:
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.

Can you point me to any literature that backs up the thinking I have outlined re >15mins for L4 to push up FTP as opposed to shorter 5-7 min ints.

Thanks

Peter

You can find literature that supports many durations for your L4 intervals, and part of the duration choices are based on just how hard those L4 intervals are for you and where you are in your develpment.

When you do them (what you would call "high L4") as 4-5' like I always do you will incur some slightly different stresses than doing them for 20' straight, e.g. more periods of oxygen debt, ability to do them at higher power, etc, and this can be what you want, or not. As for 5' for Vo2max, same thing. You can do intervals at 20-40" on/off that are very good training for your ability around VO2max.

I think your coach has probably chosen durations that suit the style of your races, and perhaps your coach understands that the shorter intervals are a good place for you to start, but they may get longer, and/or racing will provide longer durations. How long are you ever near your VO2max during a race?

Do you have frequent accelerations while you're riding around your threshold?
What are you coach's reasons for having you do them as 4-5' instead of longer?
 
peterwright said:
I have a local coach who I am debating with about various training issues. He contends that L4 intervals need only be 5 mins whereas I am advocating the use of the 2x20 (and no less than 15) and that 5 min ints must be at L5 V02max.
What is he basing this assertion on? There are many misconceptions about intervals. If somebody makes an assertion such as this which is at odds with my understanding, my first question is, "Why do you believe that?" Hopefully, it's based on more than a couple of anecdotes or the infamous, "Well, that's how (fill in the name of a top professional) trains."
 
There is a note in Jeukendrup that pre-competition phase threshold workouts can be done with a 4/1 minute protocol. The workout is suggested for very long (up to 2 hours if I am not mistaken) workouts. I don't think I could do 20/5s for two hours.

I like Warren's statement to consider what efforts are used in racing.

Now it is interesting that most of us (and Andy sometimes) suggest a 4:1 work to recover ratio for our L4 intervals. So it is quite similar.
 
Spunout said:
There is a note in Jeukendrup that pre-competition phase threshold workouts can be done with a 4/1 minute protocol. The workout is suggested for very long (up to 2 hours if I am not mistaken) workouts. I don't think I could do 20/5s for two hours.

I like Warren's statement to consider what efforts are used in racing.

Now it is interesting that most of us (and Andy sometimes) suggest a 4:1 work to recover ratio for our L4 intervals. So it is quite similar.

I recover for about 4' between 4' efforts, but, when I do those 4' threshold efforts they are at the high end of what some would call "L4". I'm doing the 4' at, or slightly above the power I see at 4mmol/l, approximately what I could do for about 30'. When I'm doing efforts for 8-25' each they are closer to the low end of what some call "L4" and for me the power is what I'd see around 2.5-3.5 mmol/l, fairly close to my power over say, 40-50', and I'd only recover for about 3'.

So, perhaps the 4-5' intervals suggested by the coach mentioned above are at a slightly higher intensity than what others would do during a 20' interval.

As alluded to in the study Andy linked, if you're a person who wants to aim at your type 1 fibers then longer and slower might be best, and if you want to aim at your type 2 fibers then shorter and faster might be best, and sometimes in the middle ground.
 
Spunout said:
Now it is interesting that most of us (and Andy sometimes) suggest a 4:1 work to recover ratio for our L4 intervals.

Actually, I don't recommend any fixed ratio...if you're doing longer efforts, then the length of the rest period doesn't really matter, whereas if you're doing shorter efforts you need to keep them under 1 min (ideally even shorter) regardless of the length of the work period. For example, I'd prescribe either 10 x 4 min on, 1 min off or 4 x 10 min on, 1 min off, but not 4 x 10 min on, 2.5 min off (which is precisely the workout that I used to do before concluding that they didn't work as well as longer efforts).
 
WarrenG said:
I'm doing the 4' at, or slightly above the power I see at 4mmol/l, approximately what I could do for about 30'.

Technically speaking, then, those are really low level 5 intervals, not high level 4.
 
acoggan said:
Technically speaking, then, those are really low level 5 intervals, not high level 4.

Keeping all the different levels/zones advocated by different people straight... One person's L4 is another person's zone 3 is another person's critical power 48.7 ...

Oh well, I call them Anaerobic Threshold 1, or AnT1 in my log. At least this term is somewhat descriptive of the effort.
 
WarrenG said:
Keeping all the different levels/zones advocated by different people straight... One person's L4 is another person's zone 3 is another person's critical power 48.7 ...

Oh well, I call them Anaerobic Threshold 1, or AnT1 in my log. At least this term is somewhat descriptive of the effort.

The reason that I brought it up is because I suspect that they aren't as effective at raising your LT as the longer, somewhat lower intensity efforts that you describe.
 
acoggan said:
The reason that I brought it up is because I suspect that they aren't as effective at raising your LT as the longer, somewhat lower intensity efforts that you describe.

It's all parts of a big picture. Different parts get attention as warranted. I find that after several months of doing lots of training (4-5x/week) in the range around 85-90% of 4mmo/l power I don't see much more improvement in the range of 90-100% of 4mmol/l power.

We then add more training around 100% and later add some training around 150+%, and 110%, etc., and my 4mmol/l power improves some more. So, what is the most effective way for me to improve threshold power in January may not be the most effective way for me to improve threshold power in March.
 
WarrenG said:
It's all parts of a big picture. Different parts get attention as warranted. I find that after several months of doing lots of training (4-5x/week) in the range around 85-90% of 4mmo/l power I don't see much more improvement in the range of 90-100% of 4mmol/l power.

We then add more training around 100% and later add some training around 150+%, and 110%, etc., and my 4mmol/l power improves some more. So, what is the most effective way for me to improve threshold power in January may not be the most effective way for me to improve threshold power in March.

I find it interesting that you apparently skip over the range between 100 and 110% of OBLA.
 
acoggan said:
I find it interesting that you apparently skip over the range between 100 and 110% of OBLA.

We have a range called AnT2 that is around 102-106%. It's used mostly on hills and later in the season on flats. I'm also just beginning to do some 5' intervals at 110% on climbs (3-5% grade), and later on the flats. Above AnT2 we refer to the watts as the zone/range/target, i.e. no names for these areas, just specified wattage/time/cadence/terrain/effort targets.