General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Epistemological Black Holes

Started by John Edser · · Last activity · 3 posts · 532 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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20 February 2004
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John Edser
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  1. Epimenides Paradox (EP) was identified by the ancient Greeks and is one the oldest con tricks
    in the book.

    ocf.berkeley.edunottrue.html

    EP is just a very simple _absolute_ self contradiction which is the equivalent to an epistemological
    "black hole". Once any argument enters it, nothing can come out of it.

    The following paper by Mario F. Heilmann available online provides many examples EP reasoning (my
    thanks to Frank Forman for bringing the paper to my attention):-

    a3.comravenpap.htm

    The paper opens:- "The notion that we are basically rational beings still predominates intuitive and
    popular thinking, in spite of proof to the contrary (Taylor, 1989, Taylor and Brown, 1988, Nisbett
    and Ross, 1980)"

    Presumably, Heilmann and the authors he quotes: Taylor and Brown, Nisbett and Ross were _not_ human
    or just happened to be the only human exceptions to their own thesis, so they alone are "basically
    rational beings". Such pointless arrogance is beyond belief. All Heilmann is dictating here is that
    he is a superior being to any of his hapless readers and he does not have to provide any test re:
    why this is the case.

    Heilmann continues:- This paper endeavours to point out that the selfish interests of individuals
    caused deception and countermeasures against deception to become driving forces behind social
    influence strategies. The expensive and wasteful nature of negotiation and impression management is
    a necessary and unavoidable consequence of this arms race between deception and detection. Natural
    selection created genetic dispositions to deceive, and to constantly and unconsciously suspect
    deception attempts. In a competitive, selfish, and war-prone world, these techniques, proven in
    billions of years in evolution, still are optimal. Therefore they are reinforced by cultural
    selection and learning. Conscious awareness of deception and countermeasures is not required, often
    even counterproductive. This is so because conscious deception is easier to detect and carries
    harsher sanctions. Humans not only deceive, but also deceive themselves and others about the fact
    that they deceive, into believing that they do not deceive. This double deception makes the system
    so watertight, that it tends to evade detection even by psychologists.

    JE:- This is the sort of AEVASIVE argument that Peter Fellin has been attempting to provide. Note
    that NONE of the above can apply to Heilmann (or Peter Fellin) otherwise Heilmann could never have
    been able to write it! Note also that Heilmann's arms race is Van Valen's Red Queen view where
    nature is "red in tooth and claw" and engaged in an endless arms race due to rampant Darwinian
    selfishness. Hiding behind Heilmann's rhetoric (it is only rhetoric because it is absolutely self
    contradictory )is just another biased altruist failing to understand or correctly apply an argument
    to evolutionary theory.

    Organism fitness selfishness (OFS) and organism fitness altruism (OFA) are exactly the same event.
    This is because they are only the opposite ends of exactly the same logic where OFS gains = OFA
    losses. You cannot have an altruistic form without an equal and opposite selfish form, otherwise
    the altruistic form is just mindlessly donating stuff to nobody. Fitness is only moved (and not
    created) from an altruistic form to a selfish form, i.e. ZERO fitness is being created. The only
    way fitness can be created within any relationship is via the use of organism fitness mutualism
    (OFM). It is OFM that logically contests OFA/OFS and nothing else. It is OFM that remains almost
    entirely neglected because of the consistent misuse of Hamilton's rule for over 50 years. OFM does
    not require any altruism and is fully compatible with Darwinian selection operating at just the
    fertile organism level,
    i.e. only Darwin's simple, _single_ level of selection is required to operate OFM.

    Heilmann continues with quotes of like minded arguments: "A tantalizing conspiracy of cognitive
    avoidance is common to the actor and his target. The actor does not wish to see himself as
    ingratiating; the target wants also to believe that the ingratiator is sincere".

    Now "cognitive avoidance" is a "conspiracy" which of course Heilmann himself is not involved
    in....or is he...?

    Welcome to the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. I see the White Rabbit is now enjoying himself.

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  2. "John Edser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Epimenides Paradox (EP) was identified by the ancient Greeks and is one the oldest con tricks in
    the book.

    ocf.berkeley.edunottrue.html

    EP is just a very simple _absolute_ self contradiction which is the equivalent to an
    epistemological "black hole". Once any argument enters it, nothing can come out of it.

    The following paper by Mario F. Heilmann available online provides many examples EP reasoning (my
    thanks to Frank Forman for bringing the paper to my attention):-

    a3.comravenpap.htm


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Conscious awareness of deception and countermeasures is not required, often even
    counterproductive. This is so because conscious deception is easier to detect and carries harsher
    sanctions. Humans not only deceive, but also deceive themselves and others about the fact that
    they deceive, into believing that they do not deceive. This double deception makes the system so
    watertight, that it tends to evade detection even by psychologists.

    JE:- This is the sort of AEVASIVE argument that Peter Fellin has been attempting to provide. Note
    that NONE of the above can apply to Heilmann (or Peter Fellin) otherwise Heilmann could never have
    been able to write it!


    <snip>

    Here is one simple (simple IMO) argument that can be used to disarm this example of Edser's
    oversimplifying logic.

    (I did NOT say that an argument surely exist by which to disarm Edser's personal use of this
    his logic.)

    - Some mutations, and some epigenetic variations, expressed by an individual, may manage to go
    against the flow of Earthly evolution (or ditto phylogeny) as a whole (= the emergence of
    reproductive geno, pheno and 'memo' types).

    Hence a non-AEVASIVE cognitive insight into the AEVASIVE aspect of What Is going on may clearly
    be possible.

    Equally clearly, carriers of such mutations or - in my case (of having understood and concEPTualized
    the "AEVASIVE" aspect/characteristics of how we are and evolved) more likely epigenetic variation -
    are not likely to affect the overall course that, in the phylogeny-of-fauna, the principle of "ambi-
    advantageous selection of adaptations in phylogeny has (as if) set for our species.

    Not that I or anyone else can know precisely what that course will come to contain in the future!
    However it seems to me that I am able to know more than you are.😉

    To finish off with, here is a metaphorical statement with both evolutionary and real-time life-
    situational relevance to the logic of my reply, for you to contemplate:

    "A drowning primate (including a person) may sometimes get its head above water before it draws its
    last breath. It is purely a matter of taste what you/we prefer: One, or NONE, Extra last look (or
    Peek) before one leaves (or one's life Terminate - EPTly so to speak)."

    P

  3. Quoted message said:

    Hence a non-AEVASIVE cognitive insight

    I meant "non-AEVASIVE" only as far as the the AEVASIVE-containing theory (EPT philosophical
    construct) is concerned!

    According to that same theoretical philosophy, in OTHER respects is even the author of EPT very
    likely to be AEVASIVE. ;->

    It seems that Nature is more subtle than, and more variable, than our dear John Edser happily
    want's to hear.

    In spite of what particular intellectual peculiarities/preoccupations makes John feel alive and
    contented, we are not easily predicted computational processes within a computer program; Nor do we
    obey rules as black-and-white as a programmer's flow-chart.

    - Who is the "oversimplified model maker" around here, I wonder? ;-)

    (One thing is for sure, it is not the Blind Watch-Maker.)

    P

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