Electronic shifting system

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
resources for this?

Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 00:03:15 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:
> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> resources for this?

Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

Dear Andrew,

The operating temperature range from 23F to 112F reminds me of a
long-ago test of an electrically-fired shotgun, intended to reduce
what's called "lock time", or the time between the trigger pull and
the firing pin hitting the primer.

The tester took the gun out for ducks and soon learned that in cold
weather the battery-powered electrical system grew so feeble that it
reminded him of the delay with an old-fashioned flint-and-powder-pan
muzzle-loading shotgun.

As far as I know, electricity failed to replace firing pins in
ordinary firearms. (Battery-fired primers are used by many automatic
military weapons, but they have considerably larger batteries.)

I wonder how well coin-cell shifters would work near the end of a
long, cold mountain stage in the Tour de France. And how happy
ordinary riders would be, stopping to replace batteries to cure slow
shifting.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Chris Solar said:

Tom Kunich said:

I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
Anyone got any suggestions?

In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.

The true advance of cordless electronic shifting will
be to relocate the shifters on a TT bike to their proper
place: the directeur sportif's steering wheel.
Venga, venga!

Sincerely,
J. Bruyneel

Next: electronic braking.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Chris Solar said:

Tom Kunich wrote:
> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.

Quoted message said:

The true advance of cordless electronic shifting will
be to relocate the shifters on a TT bike to their proper
place: the directeur sportif's steering wheel.
Venga, venga!

Quoted message said:

Sincerely,
J. Bruyneel

Next: electronic braking.

And, after that, brain implants......the *real* Mavic Zap!

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:
> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> resources for this?

Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

thanks andrew! do you [or anyone] have line drawings of the derailleur
guts? it's still not clear to me from that material how it works.

Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:

Some theorising

1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain. It can be foreseen that
this will make finer tolerances possible (overshift to move the chain,
then at the right moment adjusted back). So perhaps we can narrow the
rear end, or squeeze in more gears.
2. Weight. Though the prototypes are clunky, a botton+ wire (or button
+ remote) weigh less than cable+lever and are conceivably enough to
offset battery.
3. Prize. An sti/ergo lever is most likely more expensive than chips
mass produced rolling of the band.

I think 3 can be very important.

And about reliability: Mavic (life) prototypes shouldn't be seen as
par for the course. Water etc hardly should be an issue, considering
its actually pretty simple stuff.

I'm not a believer in a sense that I think current mechanical systems
are obsolete and are in need for replacement, but I can imagine there
are some foreseeable advantages. Prize will be a biggie.

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Tom Kunich wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> eh? maybe you should re-read?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way,
the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the
mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the
wiring in particular. They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts
of moisture. They did stay in the gear they were in when it quit or you could
stop and manually move it over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches"
in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.

Quoted message said:

sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
resources for this?

I don't know of any, sorry.

--

I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d’Oro when I wanted
them on another bike.

I used them because I don’t have any fingers on my right hand; just
part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don’t know which
one :-) )

The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
my ‘thumb’.

They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
ace.

On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
I’m in Italy, I’m gonna ride even if I only have a couple of gears.
It magically started working outside.

When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
into me.

It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
only available system that permits this.

The now long gone French team, “Big Mat” actually used Mektronic in
the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X’s

Anyone want mine 

Quoted message said:

I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d’Oro when I wanted
them on another bike.

I used them because I don’t have any fingers on my right hand; just
part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don’t know which
one :-) )

The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
my ‘thumb’.

They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
ace.

On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
I’m in Italy, I’m gonna ride even if I only have a couple of gears.
It magically started working outside.

When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
into me.

It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
only available system that permits this.

The now long gone French team, “Big Mat” actually used Mektronic in
the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X’s

Anyone want mine 

I'd be interested - contact me off list.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>> eh? maybe you should re-read?
> You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way,
> the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the
> mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the
> wiring in particular. They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts
> of moisture. They did stay in the gear they were in when it quit or you could
> stop and manually move it over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches"
> in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.
sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
resources for this?

I don't know of any, sorry.

--

I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d’Oro when I wanted
them on another bike.

I used them because I don’t have any fingers on my right hand; just
part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don’t know which
one :-) )

The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
my ‘thumb’.

They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
ace.

On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
I’m in Italy, I’m gonna ride even if I only have a couple of gears.
It magically started working outside.

When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
into me.

It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
only available system that permits this.

The now long gone French team, “Big Mat” actually used Mektronic in
the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X’s

informative post!

Quoted message said:

Anyone want mine 

Tuschinski said:

Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:

Some theorising

1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain. It can be foreseen that
this will make finer tolerances possible (overshift to move the chain,
then at the right moment adjusted back). So perhaps we can narrow the
rear end, or squeeze in more gears.
2. Weight. Though the prototypes are clunky, a botton+ wire (or button
+ remote) weigh less than cable+lever and are conceivably enough to
offset battery.
3. Prize. An sti/ergo lever is most likely more expensive than chips
mass produced rolling of the band.

I think 3 can be very important.

And about reliability: Mavic (life) prototypes shouldn't be seen as
par for the course. Water etc hardly should be an issue, considering
its actually pretty simple stuff.

I'm not a believer in a sense that I think current mechanical systems
are obsolete and are in need for replacement, but I can imagine there
are some foreseeable advantages. Prize will be a biggie.

indeed.

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:

Some theorising

1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.

I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments that
require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
something in this process about which you can educate me.

Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
whether or not the chain is centered. Aside from the fact that the physical
problems alone would pretty much prevent that - metal particals and oil all
over everything preventing fine detection - it would require additional
power and the idea is to somehow provide superior shifting without
increasing weight.

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical shifter
as cheaply as a mechanical one. Just think about those two terms which
indicate TWO entirely different mechanisms to provide what one presently
does.

Tom Kunich said:

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:

Some theorising

1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.

I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments
that require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
something in this process about which you can educate me.

Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
whether or not the chain is centered.

eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on them?

Quoted message said:

Aside from the fact that the
physical problems alone would pretty much prevent that - metal particals
and oil all over everything preventing fine detection

but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.

Quoted message said:

- it would require
additional power and the idea is to somehow provide superior shifting
without increasing weight.

who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
competition, but can be made much lighter. just use the spare
"lightness" to "solve" the shifter weight problem if it offers better
shifting.

Quoted message said:

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
electronics these days, there's no way that you can make an
electro-mechanical shifter as cheaply as a mechanical one.

since when was cost an issue? dura-ace cranks used to cost $199 for
octalink. the modern d-a costs $385 on sale. [that's nearly double you
know] and people still buy them. along with their $4,500 frames, etc.

Quoted message said:

Just think
about those two terms which indicate TWO entirely different mechanisms
to provide what one presently does.

relax and enjoy the darwinian experience - if it works, it'll happen.
if it's a p.o.s., it won't.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical shifter
as cheaply as a mechanical one

Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.

Bret

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
whether or not the chain is centered.

Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...🙂

Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?

Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
the computer adjust it.

If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
motor and a computer chip?

in message <[email hidden]>, A Muzi

(') said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:
> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> resources for this?

Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

Thanks! I've always wanted a look at that. I can't help thinking that the
Metronic was a very interesting system. You wouldn't happen to have
anything on the derailleur, would you?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you detect
the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on them?

What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling chain is
centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?

Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed setups.

Quoted message said:

but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.

You really don't understand what you're talking about.

Quoted message said:

who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
competition, but can be made much lighter.

Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"? Maybe
you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the drop of a
hat. As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a dog -
a young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete unhurt
while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off cleanly and he
went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he is OK but if you're
suggesting there's some sort of excess strength somewhere in a bicycle
you're misled.

Quoted message said:

since when was cost an issue?

By all means go buy a Mektronic which sold like hotcakes.

"lightninglad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
whether or not the chain is centered.

Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...🙂

Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?

Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
the computer adjust it.

If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
motor and a computer chip?

You obviously have a brilliant future in engineering. What is it that you do
again?

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
shifter
as cheaply as a mechanical one

Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.

Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
length of one day?

Tom Kunich said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on
them?

What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling
chain is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?

eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed
derailleur /can't/ do that.

Quoted message said:

Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed
setups.

red herring.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.

You really don't understand what you're talking about.

yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in both
the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like would be
required for a derailleur.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
competition, but can be made much lighter.

Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"? Maybe
you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the drop of
a hat.

ok, now you're becoming irrational.

Quoted message said:

As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a
dog - a young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete
unhurt while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off cleanly
and he went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he is OK but
if you're suggesting there's some sort of excess strength somewhere in a
bicycle you're misled.

weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since when was cost an issue?

By all means go buy a Mektronic which sold like hotcakes.

Tom Kunich said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
electronics
these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
shifter
as cheaply as a mechanical one

Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.

Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
length of one day?

what is the power cost of running a headlight for one night?