education

Quoted message said:

I can't accept that. The casualty statistics for urban roads do not
stand comparison with staircases.

Compare cycling as a means of transport (utility cycling on this ng) with,
er, walking then:

http://tinyurl.com/ywe9r [1]

There's a link for a pretty excel version, or an ugly generic version.

Problems with this include innacuracy in the collection of data (AFAIK
cycling tends to be underestimated, so utility cycling may be safer than
the data suggests) and that people with little sense of balance walk, but
rarely cycle. I presume the two vaguely balance each other out.

[1] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7250
&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=272

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

From this we can infer that your helmet saved you a cut head. Precisely as
expected.

Then it performed admirably! ;-)

Jon

"Will H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I landed squarely on top of my head at about 15-20kmph. I went over the
handlebars of a full sized road bike (therefore a fall of about 150cm). I
weigh about 70kg, add at least four kilos for the training materials. For
that force, I would expect severe concussion; possibly coma and a cracked
skull. If all of those did happen, then there would be further complications
or hemorrhaging etc. All of this is conjecture, so I did a search. This
article was interesting:
http://www.waltersforensic.com/articles/accident_reconstruction/vol5-no3.htm

An interesting article. It claims that for one particular impact a
helmet would have prevented injury. That is no argument for general
helmet wearing. It is similiar to the argument that was used by anti
seatbelt campainers talking about someone who crashed a car and was
thrown clear before it burst into flames because they were not wearing
a belt.
Whether the claims for either of these incidents is true or not has
no bearing on whether either helmet or seatbelt wearing is beneficial
at population level.
Iain

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:54:53 +0100, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From this we can infer that your helmet saved you a cut head. Precisely as
expected.

Quoted message said:

Then it performed admirably! ;-)

Indeed. All you have to decide is whether it's worth the fifty quid
cost of a plastic hat, and the discomfort of weering one on the
99.999% of rides where you don't fall off, to save yourself the
inconvenience of a cut head. A simple choice which may safely be left
to the individual :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Martin Bulmer said:

Can I give you my wife's phone number?

Send me a picture of your wife and I'll let you know... 😉

d.

Hello all,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I landed squarely on top of my head at about 15-20kmph. I went over the

Whether the claims for either of these incidents is true or not has
no bearing on whether either helmet or seatbelt wearing is beneficial
at population level.

This is my statistical/logical perspective...

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities. Wearing a helmet decreases the
probability and consequences of brain damage caused by head injury. Brain
damage can result in permanent, wide-ranging, profound, and extremely
unpleasant problems. I find that helmets are not uncomfortable, and that
they are not unreasonably priced (they are expensive, but what price your
brain?).

In short, the advantages of wearing a helmet vastly outweight the
disadvantages, therefore I wear a helmet.

I don't know the reference for the scientific report, but I'm reliably
informed that a positive correlation was found between intelligence and
helmet wearing amongst cyclists ;-)

Best,
Neil

Neil said:

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities.

What are your usual activities? Staying in bed all day?

Quoted message said:

Wearing a helmet decreases the
probability and consequences of brain damage caused by head injury.

Wrong! Go back to square one and reconstruct your argument - this time
using some facts.

Quoted message said:

I don't know the reference for the scientific report, but I'm reliably
informed that a positive correlation was found between intelligence and
helmet wearing amongst cyclists ;-)

How do you know you are "reliably" informed if you can't even cite the
source of your information?

d.

"davek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Martin Bulmer said:

Can I give you my wife's phone number?

Send me a picture of your wife and I'll let you know... 😉

Wrong NG. We only deal in bicycle pornography here (except those who are
'tri'😉

T

Most cycling deaths are due to people cycling at night, not following the traffic laws, and kids who don't know how to ride a bike. Helmets would not have saved these people lives. I wear a helmet when mountain biking, but not when I on the road. I'm afraid that now that smoking has been banned across the country, Helmet laws for adults are going to sweep across the nation. The babyproofing of America continues.
😄

Swansea University Psychology said:

This is my statistical/logical perspective...

For which read "this is my gut feeling".

Quoted message said:

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities. Wearing a helmet decreases the
probability and consequences of brain damage caused by head injury.

It seems it has to be said over and over and over again before it sinks
in, so I'll say it again in the hope that this time it'll sink in.

Where helmet wearing rates have gone up there has been /no detectable
change/ in serious injury rates among those populations. Brain damage
is a "serious injury", so therefore the probability (and thus
consequences) of brain damage appear to be unchanged by wearing a helmet.

Quoted message said:

I find that helmets are not uncomfortable

Depends how one defines "uncomfortable". "Intolerable", certainly not,
but a snug chin strap is /less/ comfortable than not having one, having
an unbreathable snug shell on one's head is /less/ comfortable than not,
especially in hot and/or humid weather and/or doing hard work.

Quoted message said:

they are not unreasonably priced (they are expensive, but what price your
brain?).

One more time!

Where helmet wearing rates have gone up there has been /no detectable
change/ in serious injury rates among those populations. Brain damage
is a "serious injury", so therefore the probability (and thus
consequences) of brain damage appear to be unchanged by wearing a helmet.

Quoted message said:

In short, the advantages of wearing a helmet vastly outweight the
disadvantages, therefore I wear a helmet.

The advantages are mitigation of minor injuries, if you come off in a
relatively trivial accident and would have hit the bit of your head a
helmet covers. That is a tangible advantage, but it boils down to
avoiding acute discomfort, similar to the main reason not to wear them
(avoiding minor but continual chronic discomfort). An improved chance
of avoiding brain damage is not a claim that can be substantiated with
available data, and lord knows people have tried.

Quoted message said:

I don't know the reference for the scientific report, but I'm reliably
informed that a positive correlation was found between intelligence and
helmet wearing amongst cyclists ;-)

Or put another way, you're probably unreliably informed. About how
effective helmets can reasonably be expected to be as well as the above.
I know "common sense" tells us that they must help, but "common sense"
has also told people that, amongst other things, that the Earth is flat,
it will be impossible to fly a plane faster than sound without it
falling to pieces, that railway passengers in open cars will suffocate
at 30 mph, and so on. Common sense is only much use where things are
Bloody Obvious and there aren't many variables to confuse things. Cycle
helmet efficacy is quite apparently /not/ one of those cases.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

kbs23 said:

Most cycling deaths are due to people cycling at night, not following
the traffic laws, and kids who don't know how to ride a bike. Helmets
would not have saved these people lives. I wear a helmet when mountain
biking, but not when I on the road. I'm afraid that now that smoking
has been banned across the country, Helmet laws for adults are going to
sweep across the nation. The babyproofing of America continues.

Please expand the abbreviation U.K. and respond appropriately to that
culture.

A

Swansea University Psychology said:

unpleasant problems. I find that helmets are not uncomfortable, and that
they are not unreasonably priced (they are expensive, but what price your
brain?).

Just to go with the price thing a moment. An old but usable bike is
very cheap. With a few pounds spent on it, it gets good brakes and
safe saddle and bars. Helmets, to be any use, have to be bought new.

On the economic margins, I want any available pounds to be spent on
making the bike safe, not on a lump sum purchase of something that
gives no safety improvement at the population level.

Colin McKenzie

--
The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that
it leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead!

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:04:27 +0100, davek <[email hidden]> wrote (more
or less):

Quoted message said:

Martin Bulmer said:

Can I give you my wife's phone number?

Send me a picture of your wife and I'll let you know... 😉

Not /another/ 'publish jpegs or retract' post !? :-)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

in message <[email hidden]>, Swansea University

Psychology (') said:

This is my statistical/logical perspective...

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including
head injury, compared to my usual activities. Wearing a helmet
decreases the probability and consequences of brain damage caused by
head injury.

Ah. There's your mistake. This is unproven, but probably untrue. There
is a strong suggestion that while helmets may protect against some
minor brain injuries they actually increase rotational injuries. The
net effect of helmets on head injuries, as shown by population studies,
is that they make no significant difference at all.

So wearing a helmet does not 'decrease the probability and consequences
of brain damage', according to the best research currently available.
It makes no difference.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

<p>Schroedinger's cat is <blink><strong>NOT</strong></blink> dead.</p>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:25:10 +0100, "Swansea University Psychology"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Hello all,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I landed squarely on top of my head at about 15-20kmph. I went over the

Whether the claims for either of these incidents is true or not has
no bearing on whether either helmet or seatbelt wearing is beneficial
at population level.

This is my statistical/logical perspective...

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities.

Could you quantify and support this, please?

Quoted message said:

Wearing a helmet decreases the
probability and consequences of brain damage caused by head injury.

Could you quantify and support this please? With particular regard to
the whole-population studies.

Quoted message said:

Brain damage can result in permanent, wide-ranging, profound, and extremely
unpleasant problems.

True. Could you address the mechanisms by which bicycle helmets can
exacerbate the worst of the damage, please?

And explain how much serious brain damage is caused at solo falls to
the ground at up to about 7mph, please? (The max. design capability
of the /best/ bike helmets)

Quoted message said:

I find that helmets are not uncomfortable, and that
they are not unreasonably priced (they are expensive, but what price your
brain?).

When you say, 'not uncomfortable', does this mean that having a thick
layer of polystyrene heat insulation on your head does not bother you
when increasing the heat output of your head from a sedentary 20W to
(potentially) 160W?

Or do you only cycle on very cold days?

Quoted message said:

In short, the advantages of wearing a helmet vastly outweight the
disadvantages, therefore I wear a helmet.

Quoted message said:

I don't know the reference for the scientific report, but I'm reliably
informed that a positive correlation was found between intelligence and
helmet wearing amongst cyclists ;-)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

davek said:

Neil said:

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities.

What are your usual activities? Staying in bed all day?

He obviously lives in a bungl

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"Treason doth never prosper"

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:38:35 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:54:53 +0100, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From this we can infer that your helmet saved you a cut head. Precisely as
expected.

Quoted message said:

Then it performed admirably! ;-)

Indeed. All you have to decide is whether it's worth the fifty quid
cost of a plastic hat, and the discomfort of weering one on the
99.999% of rides where you don't fall off, to save yourself the
inconvenience of a cut head. A simple choice which may safely be left
to the individual :-)

Did anyone else see 'One Sunday in Hell' on Beeb 4 the other week?

One thing that did sway me momentarily in the 'to wear or not to
wear?' staks was the the cut to the head shown by one of the riders
who'd come a cropper.

There was about an 1" square of skin missing off his skull.

I then realised that I'd be unlikely to be racing at (whatever speed
top professional competition cyclists got up to on 'hellish' cobbles -
say 30-35mph?) while bunching up with loads of other guys trying to
beat me.

So then I went back to my previous position - just as watching Ayrton
Senna go off the track didn't make me wear an F1 helmet and flameproof
overalls when I went out for a Sunday drive, I wouldn't (go back to)
wear a helmet while popping down to the shops, or meandering along the
canal bank.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Keith Willoughby said:

Keith Willoughby said:

davek said:

Neil wrote:
> Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
> injury, compared to my usual activities.

What are your usual activities? Staying in bed all day?

He obviously lives in a bungl

Premature ejaculation, there. "bungalow, too"

Phew! I thought a ceiling tile had dropped on your head an knocked you
out for a while there.

A

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Please expand the abbreviation U.K. and respond appropriately to that
culture.

He can't. He's in the world of CyclingForums!

Jon

Swansea University Psychology said:

Hello all,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I landed squarely on top of my head at about 15-20kmph. I went over the

Whether the claims for either of these incidents is true or not has
no bearing on whether either helmet or seatbelt wearing is beneficial
at population level.

This is my statistical/logical perspective...

Cycling increases the probability and severity of injury, including head
injury, compared to my usual activities. Wearing a helmet decreases the
probability and consequences of brain damage caused by head injury. Brain
damage can result in permanent, wide-ranging, profound, and extremely
unpleasant problems. I find that helmets are not uncomfortable, and that
they are not unreasonably priced (they are expensive, but what price your
brain?).

In short, the advantages of wearing a helmet vastly outweight the
disadvantages, therefore I wear a helmet.

I don't know the reference for the scientific report, but I'm reliably
informed that a positive correlation was found between intelligence and
helmet wearing amongst cyclists ;-)

Best,
Neil

There comes a point where reasoned debate seems futile .....

So one's left with .....

FOYRNB

;-)
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter
saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk