Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

*Edit Me* - New FAQ addition on brake squeal.

Started by Ant · · Last activity · 2 posts · 1,020 views

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22 July 2003
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23 July 2003
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  1. Howdy. i posted a couple days ago asking for tips and thoguhts on brake squeal. i was not, as i
    had naievely hoped, immediately inundated with secretive tricks and age-old wisdom, so i did the
    best i could with my own knowledge and the archives, and present the following for you to pick
    apart. post if there are any glaring mistakes, additions, etc. when i quoted sections from posts,
    i attributed with a name and email address. if it shoudl be just a name, or just an email, or
    neither, let me know.

    best

    anthony

    ---

    Practical Steps towards quieting squealing brakes.

    Toeing in brakes is the most basic and widely known advice. A few specifics regarding various types
    of brakes:

    V-brakes. Start with no pad toe-in. If they squeal, try toeing them in a little. Aim for no more
    than 1/32". A lot of toe in is unacceptable as there is not much cable travel to spare and you get
    mooshy action.

    Cantis. Start with them slightly toed in. Possible starting point might be width of a dime at first
    contact of front of pad. Popular wisdom seems to be quite supportive of toe angle experimentation
    with cantis. If they squeal, try a steeper angle. 1-3mm is a good realm to stay in.

    Road brakes. Start with no toe in. Many calipers do not have hardware (spherical washers) to toe in
    pads. There are many aftermarket brake pads that toe in easily, so that is one good option if they
    squeal. Unlike beefy brakes like cantis and v's, you can generally bend a road caliper to toe the
    pad in. This is, of course, a cinch with flimsy department store calipers. It was common practise
    with older road calipers like centerpulls, and there is even a park tool made specifically to do
    this. Modern road calipers, dual pivots especially, are pretty beefy and don't take as kindly to
    'metalworking'. Some new calipers come noticeably off kilter, either toed in the wrong way, or
    otherwise misaligned. It is said that cold setting these new calipers is a bad thing, as anytime you
    bend aluminum there is some risk of damage- present or future. However, I see mechanics in shops
    bend (very small bends, mind you) modern road calipers with regularity. No problems- Yet. YMMV. An
    alternative to bending calipers to achieve road caliper toe in is to take the pads off the calipers
    and sand them on a belt sander, or with a block of wood and sandpaper, such that they are toed in.

    Disc brakes. see bottom of article.

    If appropriate toe-in doesn't work, things to try, in rough priority:

    -clean rim. you might even do this before toeing in. soap and water generally work. or, you can try
    an appropriate solvent. Alcohol, and acetone seem to work. Automotive brake cleaner has also been
    suggested. Alcohol is much better for you than acetone, acetone is a stronger solvent. Brake cleaner
    doesn't sound like something you'd want to drink either, but sometimes you have to make sacrifises.
    -Make sure pads are correctly oriented. Pads where orientation matters generally have an arrow that
    indicates rim revolution direction. Art Harris writes: "If you have any of the "asymetrical" pads,
    make sure the longer end is towards the rear." If there is no indication of correct orientation, you
    could try turning them around, or switching them left for right to see if that changes anything.
    -sand rim. or scotchbrite. machined rims have a roughness to them already, but sanding can sometimes
    help with these anyway. with some rims, steel wool, or a 400 grit swipe is all it takes. 125 grit is
    the last resort, and your rims better be pre-machined or the fine scratches will look pretty ugly
    and nobody will talk to you on the club ride. -take brake system apart and rebuild clean, lubed, and
    tight. neglected points would be a little grease between pad washers which can make a difference.
    -clean pads. also make sure there is no foreign matter embedded in the pads. -sand pads. or
    scotchbrite. if that doesnt work, file pads. You can also try sanding areas of the pad away. Sanding
    a bevel into 1/4 of the leading edge of the pad has been suggested a few times. -uneven toe in. toe
    in one pad only, or one pad more than the other. -Toe-OUT. yes. toe the pads the wrong way. As
    little as 1/64" all the way up to 'generous' toe-out. this decreases braking power, but if you keep
    it conservative it should not be a problem with modern brake systems. -change pad, either material
    or construction. a cartridge pad is stiffer than a disposable brake pad. in addition, some cheaper
    pads may have inferior tolerances and not seat as firmly onto the caliper. changing material can
    make a big difference. -for bossed calipers (cantis/v's) a brake booster stiffens the system.
    -aftermarket adjustments to brake calipers. Shimano, for example, sells shims that adjust the play
    in some of their bossed brakes. This was specifically to address squealing problems in parallel-push
    calipers, IIRC. -change brake calipers. stiffer might help. or just changing something can do the
    trick. higher quality does not necessarily mean less squealing, but it generally is a step in the
    right direction. -you do have aluminum rims, don't you?

    Misc. Tips and Tricks.

    Popular wisdom on R.B.T

    To sand your rims, and clean any contaminants off at the same time, you can do it while riding. From
    a variety of posts, your options include riding in the rain, or through puddles, or mud, while
    braking a lot. Putting an abrasive on the rims while riding such as bathtub cleaner, etc, laying on
    the brakes, and rinsing it off afterwards with a waterbottle can work too.

    Mellerio: [email hidden]

    I have tried everything under the sun to quiet XTR v-brake squeal on my Cannondale Headshok Fatty
    SL. A Shimano Carbon Brake Booster works because it dampens the vibration. This led me to find other
    solutions to dampen vibration. I tried rubber bands around the pivot arms, etc. and nothing worked.

    Today I tried placing a 1/8" O-Ring between the v-brake and the brake boss mount. I tightened down
    the v-brake, compressing the O-Ring and took the bike for a spin (without the carbon booster). No
    squeal!!! [Although in the rain they still squealed]

    From Mike Jacoubowsky: [email hidden]

    First, just for kicks. try reversing the front wheel.

    From Gmaker: [email hidden]

    -Observe the wheel from above in very good light. -Very slowly apply brakes. -Carefully check if the
    wheel deflects slightly in one direction as a result of one pad applying more force than the other
    *just when they hit*.

    This can happen even though the pad standoff appears equal and the pads seem to move evenly. Adjust
    pads to stop this.

    Counter-intuitive, and unproven, From K. Becker: [email hidden]

    Here's an unconventional cure for brake squeal: Put a little wax on the rims or the pads, rubbing
    them lightly with a crayon or a candle works well. I've used this method on several of my neighbor's
    bikes, since the metal used for brakes on cheap bikes is often too brittle to toe-in. The wax
    actually seems to improve the performance, although if you used too much it might decrease it, so
    apply sparingly.

    From Neil, at the shop I work at

    If all else fails, or you are in a hurry, brushing a little talcum power on the brake pad seems to
    take squeal away. Unsure about how long it lasts.

    The Kool Stop Salmon Legend: A Red Herring?

    Koolstop salmon pads are highly recommended on r.b.t for their power and quality. On my own bike, I
    can feel a marked difference in power when running the KS salmons. However, all is not golden. Some
    or all of these salmon pads seem to be particularly resistant to de-squealing with some setups. Many
    posts volunteer alterations you can make that may or may not cut down on squeal, including sanding
    off the plow tip, sanding a bevel into the pads, sanding in a 'toe-in', etc. Many suggest koolstop
    dual compound pads for bikes in need of quality pads but with serious squealing issues with the
    full-salmons. Another possibility to reap the benefits of grippy salmon is to use the KS salmon
    cartridges with a stiff metal cartridge holder.

    Things that can cause a brake that wasn't squealing before to start squealing;

    -coating the rim with a substance that exaggerates the stick-slip behavior of pad on rim. examples
    include getting oil or grease on the rim surface, or biking through wet grasses as mentioned in the
    FAQ. Fix: clean the rim. -Too clean. This is one that has happened to me. It seems that some amount
    of dirt or abrasive on the rim can keeps things quiet for squeal-prone brake systems. I once cleaned
    the rims on one of my squeal-prone rides with alcohol, and suddenly my brakes were squealing after
    months of silence. I cleaned again. More squeal. I figured it was impure solvent, so i upgraded to
    acetone, and cleaned them with that. still squealing like a pig. I had to lightly sand the rims and
    toe them in more to shut them up. -pads wearing down and developing new resonant properties. re-toe
    in, sand, or whatever it takes. -bad karma. call your mother, clean your bike, feed your dog, and
    hope for the best.

    Disc brake squeal:

    Y'know how all the manufacturers say not to get oil on your rotors/pads while setting up/bleeding
    your brakes? Well. Now you know. Clean them. Clean the pads. Clean everything. Some companies say
    that cleaning pads of oil is useless and hint that they might need replacement. YMMV. Below find
    some tips. In addition to these, check that everything is clean, lubed, and tight. As a last resort,
    you could try sanding the rotor itself.

    From Tony Raven:

    1. Clean the disc with [solvents such as] methylated spirits and make sure it does not get oil or
    wax on it - washing the bike with wax containing car shampoo can cause the problem as can clumsy
    spray lubrication.

    2. After cleaning the disc, take the pads out, place fine emery on a flat (glass?) surface and
    rub the pad surface on the emery in a figure of eight motion to remove any glazing that may
    have formed.

    3. Put the pads back (in the same place as they came from, don't mix them up) with a smear of
    copper grease between the pad and the piston.

    4. Chamfer the leading edge of the pads

    5. Ride in wet abrasive mud

    From Rich Wood: [email hidden]

    lightly coat the back of the pads with copper grease. You might need to put a strip of aluminium
    tape on there first to stop the grease contaminating the pads.

    Thank you to:

    Everyone. I couldn't possibly cite everyone who's posts contributed to this accumulated knowledge,
    so a big thank you and an electronic hug will have to do.

  2. A couple of really cosmetic findings:

    Quoted message said:

    Cantis. Start with them slightly toed in. Possible starting point might be width of a dime at
    first contact of front of pad.

    "Width of a dime" is not very widely known length unit, in particular outside of the US. Is it
    about 1mm?

    Quoted message said:

    -clean pads. also make sure there is no foreign matter embedded in the pads.

    If there is, how to get rid of it? Or is replacing the pads the only cure?

    Thanks for the newborn FAQ! 🙂

    Konstantin Shemyak.

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