Drink This?

I'd buy the icy cold fresh lemonade in a heartbeat and if it was really good, I'd buy a second one.

Cheers, Barry

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Question for a friend. This (younger) female friend had a "brilliant" idea (aren't they all) and
has sought my wisdom (mistake) and I don't want to steer the person wrong...as I have made more
than a few bad calls before (re: home

computers

Quoted message said:

and pocket calculators will NEVER catch on, so don't invest in those toys...whoops). Anyway her
idea (Summer job idea) was to sell Icy Cold "Bottled Water and Fresh?? Lemonade" beside a popular
Bike Path. My 1st thought was "Gatorade" would sell better for Mtb and Performance cyclists. That
when I ride I like a bottle of cold Perrier, a friend said

he

Quoted message said:

prefers a glass of tap water...drinks half and pours other half over his head (the guy is just
plain weird).

Anyway the weekend question would be: when on a bike path (summer/heat)

and

Quoted message said:

you encounter someone flogging Icy Cold liquid refreshments a) would you stop to buy and b) what
would you (prefer) to drink??

as for Bent content, her plan is to raise enough $ to buy a trike

P.S. keep it clean, she wants a printout of any replies

TIA

WHAT? Me candy-coat something. I assume UR talking about the Calfee bent and Fast Freddy. All I did
was offer an opinion and Fast Freddy and 6 people using ARBR did not agree with my opinion (more did
agree however), but I was not asking anyone to agree or disagree with my opinion. The way it was
written (initially) it implied that the bent would be added to Calfee's line of Carbon bikes and I
said (that in the present design configuration....it was a Lemon, it would not sell and Calfee would
loose their shirt if they did not do a major overhaul of the design). That overhaul includes losing
the fairing and losing the steering design, moving the BB, using a better seat etc....do all this
and you'd end up with a TE in Carbon and THAT would sell and if Fast Freddy stuck his name on a
Carbon Tour Easy he and Easy Racers would make mucho money.

WHAT would be a waste here, would be sheep lining up and telling Gabriel and Fred Markham that the
Prototype was the best thing ever done since the creation of the 1st wheel and then the Prototype
goes into production AS IS and it flops. No one wins if this happens and Calfee especially will have
been convinced to NEVER do another bent.

IMO I WAS supporting Fast Freddy by being critical of his design, just he, Gabriel and 6 others here
didn't get it. Gabriel did add later on...the Fast Freddy design (would) be changed and that the
photos showed ONLY the initial design workup, which is fine...that is what I expected a Prototype to
be. You just have to be careful to distinguish between praise of the Designer and praise for the
Design. In other words, if everyone and his dog bestowed nothing but praise on ARBR for the
Design...(because) it was a Fast Freddy creation and everyone loved Fast Freddy. Then Fast Freddy
would think his Prototype was the cats meow (AS IS) and take it into production...and AS IS, it will
die. What I did was give my opinion (as someone who has owned a TE) as someone who has driven bents
with a front fairing AND someone who made the mistake of covering my front fairing with a material I
could NOT see through (resulting in bending my front forks when I rode into a curb I could not see
ahead of me). I (usually) learn from my mistakes and when I saw a black Fast Freddy fairing I felt
obligated to pass on my (experience) that a fairing you cannot see through is a mistake.
DUH...imagine the Liability issues that would arise if Calfee left the Black Fairing on (as in the
prototype) and someone smacks into granny because the fairing blocked their short distance forward
view. I (still) believe my suggesting changes to the Fast Freddy design are warranted to protect
Calfee and Fast Freddy.

Candy-coating... Moi?
--------------------------------------------------------------
"chere" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Joshua Says: "There is so much pure genius making bents now that it would take far more than the
Fast Freddy name on it to get people lining

up

Quoted message said:

to buy one."

So, Joshua, why don't you say what you really mean; still not

candy-coating

Quoted message said:

words, are ya? And watch out for that G.E.M (green-eyed monster).

What if we supported each other in life's endeavors; do you suppose that would be a good thing?
And what if we cyclists in general were a strong collective group? Would that be even better?

Chere

In lieu of full body massages, iced tea, YooHoo and V8...

Icy cold is bad. Use to like it when I was a kid. It gives me ice cream headaches now. Warm tea on a
hot day is nice.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Question for a friend. This (younger) female friend had a "brilliant" idea (aren't they all) and
has sought my wisdom (mistake) and I don't want to steer the person wrong...as I have made more
than a few bad calls before (re: home

computers

Quoted message said:

and pocket calculators will NEVER catch on, so don't invest in those toys...whoops). Anyway her
idea (Summer job idea) was to sell Icy Cold "Bottled Water and Fresh?? Lemonade" beside a popular
Bike Path.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

WHAT?

who has driven bents with a front fairing AND someone who made the mistake of covering my front
fairing with a material I could NOT see through (resulting in bending my front forks when I rode
into a curb I could not see ahead of me). Candy-coating... Moi?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Stands to reasone that somebody as blind as you would run into a curb...I think you could hardly
blame the fairing, how about taking the blame yourself!

OUCH Well I've been legally blind since 1969 when I had an encounter with a rocket propelled
grenade, but I have enough vision restored to my right eye that allows me to see where the hell I am
riding (most of the time). Left eye is toast though. The encounter with the curb was in a turn, the
fairing made seeing the curb impossible for me or for anyone. A blacked out fairing is fine for
seeing stuff far ahead of you, but not up close when you have changed direction....try it and see
what happens.
--------------------------------
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

WHAT?

who has driven bents with a front fairing AND someone who made the

mistake

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of covering my front fairing with a material I could NOT see through (resulting in bending my
front forks when I rode into a curb I could not

see

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ahead of me). Candy-coating... Moi?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Stands to reasone that somebody as blind as you would run into a curb...I think you could hardly
blame the fairing, how about taking the blame yourself!

"Joshua Goldberg" skrev

Quoted message said:

A blacked out fairing is fine for seeing stuff far ahead of you, but not up close when you have
changed direction....try it and see what happens.

Okay, so I'm flogging a dead horsie here... Try to mount the fairing so you can look over it, thats
what everyone else, including FF I bet, does.

M.

dead horsie flogging again are we try the blacked out fairing on an Avatar with USS and see what
happens when U turn onto a side street or into a driveway, looking over the top was fine until I
steered right or left and then I could not see the curb/kerb BUT as I said originally, I was a klutz
with USS when I first began riding the Avatar, I have long since mastered USS and suspect today
curbs would be safe and secure if I rode an Avatar. Some LWBs I took to without a problem, others
(Linear) for example took some getting used to. Luckily way back then, there were not that many
bents around to test my riding skills or lack there of on.

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" skrev

Quoted message said:

A blacked out fairing is fine for seeing stuff far ahead of you, but not up close when you

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

changed direction....try it and see what happens.

Okay, so I'm flogging a dead horsie here... Try to mount the fairing so you can look over it,
thats what everyone else, including FF I bet, does.

M.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dead horsie flogging again are we try the blacked out fairing on an Avatar with USS and see
what happens

when

Quoted message said:

U turn onto a side street or into a driveway, looking over the top was

fine

Quoted message said:

until I steered right or left and then I could not see the curb/kerb BUT as I said originally, I
was a klutz with USS when I first began riding the Avatar, I have long since mastered USS and
suspect today curbs would

be

Quoted message said:

safe and secure if I rode an Avatar. Some LWBs I took to without a

problem,

Quoted message said:

others (Linear) for example took some getting used to. Luckily way back then, there were not that
many bents around to test my riding skills or

lack

Quoted message said:

there of on.

All valid points. However, there are a great many TE and GRR riders using a body sock (self
included). That pretty much eliminates any sightline through the fairing. I'll confess, I was leery
about the reduced visibility when I ordered the sock. The first ride cured that. Given that, I can
see where FF is working under the same design assumption. Top of fairing no higher than chin level
and sight lines very similar to a TE. No big deal.

Tom Thompson

I don't really mind the CF Black Fairing Fast Freddy is using (don't tell him that thought though).
It was just the angle of the fairing in the photos that I saw as being a might too high to be safe.
Lower the angle a few degrees and that fairing would be great. I would worry that Calfee would loose
their shirt if a buyer used that Black fairing (at that angle) and smacked into some kid or granny.
This was why I suggested the Calfee would make a good Competition/Track bent re: no kids, small
animals or little old ladies to mow down. The more I read about Fred Markham, the less I think he is
a total jerk. I guess I had better STOP reading about him if I ever wanna see my $1K.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Tom Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dead horsie flogging again are we try the blacked out fairing on an Avatar with USS and see what
happens

when

Quoted message said:

U turn onto a side street or into a driveway, looking over the top was

fine

Quoted message said:

until I steered right or left and then I could not see the curb/kerb BUT as I said originally, I
was a klutz with USS when I first began

riding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Avatar, I have long since mastered USS and suspect today curbs would

be

Quoted message said:

safe and secure if I rode an Avatar. Some LWBs I took to without a

problem,

Quoted message said:

others (Linear) for example took some getting used to. Luckily way back then, there were not
that many bents around to test my riding skills or

lack

Quoted message said:

there of on.

All valid points. However, there are a great many TE and GRR riders using

a

Quoted message said:

body sock (self included). That pretty much eliminates any sightline

through

Quoted message said:

the fairing. I'll confess, I was leery about the reduced visibility when I ordered the sock. The
first ride cured that. Given that, I can see where

FF

Quoted message said:

is working under the same design assumption. Top of fairing no higher than chin level and sight
lines very similar to a TE. No big deal.

Tom Thompson

"Tom Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dead horsie flogging again are we try the blacked out fairing on an Avatar with USS and see what
happens

when

Quoted message said:

U turn onto a side street or into a driveway, looking over the top was

fine

Quoted message said:

until I steered right or left and then I could not see the curb/kerb BUT as I said originally, I
was a klutz with USS when I first began riding the Avatar, I have long since mastered USS and
suspect today curbs would

be

Quoted message said:

safe and secure if I rode an Avatar. Some LWBs I took to without a

problem,

Quoted message said:

others (Linear) for example took some getting used to. Luckily way back then, there were not
that many bents around to test my riding skills or

lack

Quoted message said:

there of on.

All valid points. However, there are a great many TE and GRR riders using a body sock (self
included). That pretty much eliminates any sightline through the fairing. I'll confess, I was
leery about the reduced visibility when I ordered the sock. The first ride cured that. Given that,
I can see where FF is working under the same design assumption. Top of fairing no higher than chin
level and sight lines very similar to a TE. No big deal.

Tom Thompson

I have a see-thru(lexan)fairing and NEVER look thru it. I have it set so I look OVER it just as the
manufacturer recommends. I don't see having any problem with sight using FF's carbon fiber fairing.
It's a beautiful looking fairing and I'd love to have one!

Lynn IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them
clear??? When car companies design a car with a small windshield, the seating is upright, sport
style cars with lay back recumbent seating use larger windshields, Helicopters use clear Lexan
panels at knee level so pilots can look down and see what they are landing on....even though you
do not land nose 1st. I'd think it is a criminal liability issue that fairing makers use clear
lexan. The lower area of the fairing is clear so you can see a few inches to 10 feet in front of
you and anything further a field you could see by looking over the top of your windscreen. The
only way to prove this would be to black out a fairing such as a Windwrap, recline a hard-shell on
a LWB and go for a ride, then do it over with the Windwrap clear (same seat angle) and see which
makes more sense.

OTOH we could wait till Calfee puts 20 of these FF fairings into the market and see what happens IF
a bent pilot smacks into someone and the Police determine they did not see the injured person
because there was a blind spot due to their all black fairing.

I guess you should write Calfee and offer to buy the FF fairing IF it goes into production AND I'd
be most curious if Calfee has purchasers sign a Liability Waiver attached to the sale.

It is NOT the fairing that is the problem, it will be the seat angle that will need to be more
upright than most riders would prefer to use. IF you look at the pics Gabe posted of the FF Fairing
you'll note the rider is in an upright riding position and STILL had to lean forward to see what
was ahead....very few pilots would want to ride any distance in such an upright position. IF the
fairing was clear...the riding position can be more reclined and thus more comfortable for (most)
pilots on a LWB.

Would seem counter productive to ride a bent that required the pilot to sit up straight like your
teachers told you to do in school, the beauty of riding bent is the lay back reclined and feet
forward body position. We'll just have to wait and see what Calfee does and THEN pick up on the
merits of the design then.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Lynn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a see-thru(lexan)fairing and NEVER look thru it. I have it set so I look OVER it just as
the manufacturer recommends. I don't see having any problem with sight using FF's carbon fiber
fairing. It's a beautiful looking fairing and I'd love to have one!

Quoted message said:

From: "Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them clear???
(clipped but relevant text)

Amen, Joshua! I need to see the road for at least the 25 ft.closest in front of me or I could land
in a New England pothole. And I'm short, so I look through the fairing, not over it.

Furthermore, I found that if you are looking over the fairing, the windstream is hitting your face
and head, not being properly deflected over
it. Great for hot slow summer rides but you risk an ice-cream headache biking with a low fairing
setting in winter.

i.u.

"Carol Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them
clear??? (clipped but relevant text)

Amen, Joshua! I need to see the road for at least the 25 ft.closest in front of me or I could land
in a New England pothole. And I'm short, so I look through the fairing, not over it.

Furthermore, I found that if you are looking over the fairing, the windstream is hitting your face
and head, not being properly deflected

over

Quoted message said:

it. Great for hot slow summer rides but you risk an ice-cream headache biking with a low fairing
setting in winter.

C.C.

C.C.:

If the air is deflected over your head and you are looking through the fairing then it isn't
properly adjusted according to the manufacturer. Proper fairing adjustment on the TE, according to
Zzipper, is for the height of the fairing to be no higher than the bridge of your nose. Zzipper
cautions you not to adjust the fairing above eye level. It's a safety issue because what you see
through the fairing is unclear and distorted.

I don't use my TE Super Zzipper fairing in the winter because of the ice cream headache effect.

skip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them
clear??? (clipped but relevant text)

Furthermore, I found that if you are looking over the fairing, the windstream is hitting your
face and head, not being properly deflected

over

Quoted message said:

it. Great for hot slow summer rides but you risk an ice-cream headache biking with a low fairing
setting in winter.

Quoted message said:

If the air is deflected over your head and you are looking through the fairing then it isn't
properly adjusted according to the manufacturer. Proper fairing adjustment on the TE, according to
Zzipper, is for the height of the fairing to be no higher than the bridge of your nose. Zzipper
cautions you not to adjust the fairing above eye level. It's a safety issue because what you see
through the fairing is unclear and distorted.

I don't use my TE Super Zzipper fairing in the winter because of the ice cream headache effect.

skip

I talked to Karl of zzipper when I ordered my fairing; and what with my being height challenged
(5'3"😉 and with the angle of my handlebars and seatback, the only way I could get that fairing low
enough would be to have it hit me in the nose; or for it to be curved way out in the middle, not
good aerodynamics. Maybe I should cut the fairing shorter.

If I need to see the road undistorted for a second, I sit up straight, shoulders off the seatback.

Does your nonfaired winter riding result in slower speeds? Or does it just seem slower because
you're colder? 🙂 Or do you ride only on the flat? My regular rides include some 35-40 mph downhills
with resulting windchill and some gusty coastal roads.

C.C.

"Carol Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I talked to Karl of zzipper when I ordered my fairing; and what with my being height challenged
(5'3"😉 and with the angle of my handlebars and seatback, the only way I could get that fairing low
enough would be to

have

Quoted message said:

it hit me in the nose; or for it to be curved way out in the middle, not good aerodynamics. Maybe
I should cut the fairing shorter.

Are you using the Easy Racer handle bar attachments or the Zzipper T-Bars?The T-Bars offer a lot of
adjustment flexibility compared to the Easy Racer's brake lever gizmos.

Quoted message said:

Does your nonfaired winter riding result in slower speeds? Or does it

just

Quoted message said:

seem slower because you're colder? 🙂 Or do you ride only on the flat?

My

Quoted message said:

regular rides include some 35-40 mph downhills with resulting windchill

and

Quoted message said:

some gusty coastal roads.

The bike and I are slower in the winter, but my S.O., who rides with me sometimes. is a little
slower than I am. Not having the fairing seems to even us up so we get to ride, chat. and pretend
we're not cold. We aren't really winter riders. Generally our bike club's New Year's Day Chili Ride
is enough for me until I get to do some mid February/March riding in northern Fla.

I do admire you though. It takes a hardy soul to winter ride in New England. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Gusty
costal roads? Not until mid spring thank you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it hit me in the nose; or for it to be curved way out in the middle, not good aerodynamics. Maybe
I should cut the fairing shorter.

Are you using the Easy Racer handle bar attachments or the Zzipper T-Bars?The T-Bars offer a lot
of adjustment flexibility compared to the Easy Racer's brake lever gizmos.

I have the zzipper T-bars and I agree there's a lot of adjustment possible. Plus, Karl drilled an
extra set of holes so I could decide to raise it or lower it in a bigger way. This is the same size
fairing he made for an Oregon TE group of women called the "Golden Girls" who probably are all
short like me.

The problem for me is deciding whether to set the top part into a deeper lateral bend, thus creating
a more bladelike wind cleaver; or to make it broader and flatter along the top, thus putting my
hands inside the non-wind space.

I asked a.r.b.r. this question about configuration, within the past year. Most answers were
essentially "try out both and do a rolldown test." Which I haven't done yet.

C.C.

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lynn IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them
clear???

I don't know. Perhaps you should ask Mueller or Zzipper? Come to think of it I've had solid
coroplast fairings on previous bents and I often attach a bodysock to my present Mueller which
blocks me from seeing thru the fairing. It has never got in the way of me seeing in front of me.
Reason being I have the fairing top set below my eyes so I can see over the top of it, the way the
manufacturer suggests.

But by all means, ride with whatever fairing material and as high up in your field of vision as your
little heart desires. Me? I got my eye on FF's BAD ASS 1 lb. carbon fiber fairing. Not to mention
his totally trick new Calfee built LWB!!! Lynn

Lynn...could you delay buying the FF Calfee LWB till after Jan.01, 2004 LOL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Lynn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lynn IF fairings are designed to be looked over the top of, WHY would most companies make them
clear???

I don't know. Perhaps you should ask Mueller or Zzipper? Come to think of it I've had solid
coroplast fairings on previous bents and I often attach a bodysock to my present Mueller which
blocks me from seeing thru the fairing. It has never got in the way of me seeing in front of me.
Reason being I have the fairing top set below my eyes so I can see over the top of it, the way the
manufacturer suggests.

But by all means, ride with whatever fairing material and as high up in your field of vision as
your little heart desires. Me? I got my eye on FF's BAD ASS 1 lb. carbon fiber fairing. Not to
mention his totally trick new Calfee built LWB!!! Lynn

Joshua Goldberg said:

... I'd think it is a criminal liability issue that fairing makers use clear lexan....

The primary reasons for using polycarbonate [1] for fairings are that it does not become brittle at
any temperature that will be encountered during service and that it has high impact resistance
compared to most other polymers.

[1] Lexan is a trademark name used by GE Plastics for polycarbonate.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)