Your Bloody Soap Box · Public discussion

Does World War Three Approach

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Your Bloody Soap Box
Published
13 July 2006
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4 August 2006
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Carrera
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  1. ptlwp said:


    Anyone who is too stupid to see the bigger picture - Iran and Syria pulling a war by proxy via Hizbollah and other terrorist organizations are either blind, dumb, stupid, or any combination of thereof.

    The bigger picture also includes the Occupation of the Golan Heights for the thick end of 40 years, not to mention the occasional missile, sonic boom and artillery shelling of Syria over the years. The bigger picture also includes some of Israeli's proxies, like the militia that Israel funded, armed and ultimately let into Sabra & Shatilla to rape and murder several thousand Palestinian women and children.

    None of that justifies the first degree murder of scores of Lebanese civillians, or the indiscriminate attacks on their supply infrastructure. To be brutally honest responding to attacks on the IDF with indiscriminate attacks on civillians is criminal and unjustifiable.

    "Provoked" or not, Israel has just committed first degree mass murder of innocent civillians. There is no way you can justify that with self-delusion, paranoia and conspiracy theories.

    ptlwp said:


    The man who denies the holocaust (Iranawhojerk) and yet, existed is in the process of trying to ignite a second holocaust.....

    Funny way of going about it. So far the stats and weaponry are all very much in Israel's favour. They have successfully murdered scores of innocent civillians with practically no loss of their own (most of the Israeli casualties are soldiers). They haven't even broken out the nukes yet.

    ptlwp said:


    it is a shame that a Jewish state needs to be surrounded by Moslems and it has worked out fabulously miserable for all concerned. I fear for any INNOCENT lives lost in this conflagration.

    Too late, Israel has already murdered scores of innocent Civillians in this one operation, but they clearly don't count as "innocent lives" to you.

    ptlwp said:


    Just like [censored], he is able to work the crowds into a frenzy, I fear.

    Debatable, he leaves a hell of a lot of Iranians stone cold. One thing is for sure though : Halutz, Sharoni and Olmert have worked wonders on you.

  2. Carrera said:

    ...What I've never been able to figure out is why so many cyclists don't share my own political views when non-cyclists do think the same as me...

    Because cyclists are generally smarter than non-cyclists?

  3. This is a problem, but does not need to be on this site. If you can't stick to bicycling issues, get off and go to the multitude of political forums to express your views🙁

  4. What happens is I find that many people agree with me on other websites and I can't figure out why my pro-Israeli views have caused so much offence on the soapbox in the past. I found dozens of people on the Beeb who agree with me and I was surprised.

    "How do you think they're going to get hold of Cpl Shalit in one piece?"

    I'll do my best to tread as delicately as I can here but it seems to me Israel has a big problem on it's hands and I think they need to do something about it. Moreover, they need to do something now. Again this is just my own opinion.
    What we appear to have for a start is interference by Iran that needs to be addressed. For a start, Iran is trying to distract from its nuclear project by advancing Islamic fundamentalism in Gaza and Lebanon. Iran is supplying missiles it purchased from China to Lebanon and Syria, to arm and train extremist militias. The objective of Iran would appear to be the total destruction of Israel as a State, any way it can do it. The election of Hamas would have suited Iran's agenda perfectly.
    This is my opinion on how things stand. I saw an Israeli military guy on T.V. today who explained Iran was behind the drone that damaged an IDF warship, just as Iran has sold arms to Iraqi militia.
    Maybe Israel is going to do the unthinkable and actually take the conflict to Iran - something that's been on the cards for quite some time.
    I suppose the last thing the U.S. wants is war with Iran but I do think Israel may be reaching a point where they figure if they leave the situation for too long, it could cost them dearly.
    I think Israel is trying to target the Hamas extremists in Gaza, stop the rockets coming out of Lebanon and it's trying to stop Iran gaining influence in the region.
    Having said that, if Israel does hit Iran, we're in for one hell of a war with heavy casualties on the Israeli side too. The position of Russia and the E.U. would be very complex for Israel as well.
    What I can't figure out is how come Russia is lecturing Israel on restraint when Russia declared all 18 year old Chechnyans as "terrorists" and bombed Chechnya so hard, thousands of mothers lost their sons. Did Russia show restraint when Moscow was being bombed?
    Why does the rest of the world seem to think Israel should just sit back and do nothing when other countries don't practise what they preach? I heard other folks on the BBC forum say just the same as me.

    darkboong said:

    They talk the same twaddle as you do, they get the same response. I noticed that none of the posts you picked acknowledge that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire, let alone the repeated assassinations of Hamas officials and civillians throughout the entire ceasefire.

    I can't see how you can make any valid assessment about Hamas' intentions when you so blatantly ignore the 15 months of ceasefire that they observed.

    They gave it a shot, they got shot. Quoting the BBC :

    "Israel has rejected calls for a ceasefire, and says it will not enter into negotiations for Cpl Shalit's release."

    How do you think they're going to get hold of Cpl Shalit in one piece ? Bomb every square inch of Gaza ? Kill every last Palestinian ? Arrest every single elected Palestinian politician ? Bomb every single government building ? ... Meanwhile they claim that the operation was planned and executed from outside Gaza... They are just bombing the [censored] out of a bunch of people that they believe had no part in it...

    Kinda weird watching a bunch of looneys endorse the mass murder of innocents and get their view broadcast round the world by the BBC. Goebbels would have been impressed.

  5. Wrong. The Soabox isn't about cycling at all and the cycling training section is in a different section. 🙄
    Personally, I have no objection over not discussing this issue if it genuinely upsets people so I guess it depends whether you all want to get it off your chests or not.
    I suppose I figure if we are entering WW3, we might as well discuss how we got there - to this point.

    DoctorCasey said:

    This is a problem, but does not need to be on this site. If you can't stick to bicycling issues, get off and go to the multitude of political forums to express your views🙁

  6. Here are some more comments on the Beeb. These are a minority on the Beeb site and mostly Americans. Still they exist but I've no idea if they're cyclists too:
    http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=2593&start=60&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20060715221917&#paginator

    'This fighting will end when BOTH sides want peace, not revenge. One side will have to be the proverbial "bigger" person and work harder at diplomacy and opening lines of communication.
    It is very sad to watch all the violence..my heart hurts for both sides, for ALL people hurt by war.
    T A Sheppard, Williamsport USA

    "Shame on anyone who critizes the Israeli action in Lebanon. Israel was attacked across the recogized international border and 8 soldiers were killed, 2 captured and hundreds of rockets fired on civilian targets. It is amazing that they have reacted with such restraint. Israel will and should fight terror wherever it comes from. America stands with Israel at this time!
    Andrew, Fort Lee, New Jersey, USA

    "Maybe if the Arab-Persian-Muslim world will collectively just drop their obsession with the 0.1% of that region that is Israel and focus on the 99.9% of the region that they have, Israel won't have to keep responding."
    Steve Randall, New York, USA

    Anti-Israeli comments always come from predictable sources. The same people who call Israel a terrorist state even when it acts in self-defence have truly got the world upside down. No-one forced Hezbollah to kidnap the soldier on Israeli territory. Even Lebanese would admit that they have not been attacked by Israel for many years - if Israel was a terrorist nation, why hasn't it nuked its enemies? That's what that nutter running Iran will do to Israel as soon as he is able. Go for it Israel!

    Hizbullah asked for it, and they got it. I am sure the Lebanese people are quietly wishing Israel destroys Hizbullah and drives it from their land.
    Boris, New York

    "Israel Kills Lebanese Civilians" the bbc website headline read. The bbc, trying to equate the actions of a free democracy which wants to defend itself and has no intention of harming civilians, with the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians by Hizbollah and Hamas, both dedicated to the extinction of the Israeli people and state. Why, when British troops accidentally kill civilians in iraq do we not see the headline "Britain kills Iraqi Civillains". The BBC knows THAT would be irresponsible
    SR"

    EoinC said:

    Because cyclists are generally smarter than non-cyclists?

  7. Carrera said:


    I'll do my best to tread as delicately as I can here but it seems to me Israel has a big problem on it's hands and I think they need to do something about it.

    Israel is also making big problems for other countries. Last time I checked Israel still had all it's airports, ports and had suffered very few casualities. By contrast Lebanon has had the majority of it's transport infrastructure knocked out, and has suffered over eighty dead civillians. Israel has *direct* responsibility for the casualties it creates.

  8. [center]Our World: After Londonistan
    Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST
    July 11, 2006

    [/center]
    In the wake of last year's terror attacks on London, the people of Britain seemed muster the will to rally around their flag. After years of denial, the country that gave Israel the British jihad bombers who blew up Mike's Place in 2003; gave Pakistan and America Daniel Pearl's British jihadist executioner; and gave America the British jihadist shoe bomber finally acknowledged that British jihadists were a problem for Britain.

    British Prime Minister Tony Blair started to admit that the source of the terror was not poverty, Iraq, Afghanistan or Israel but the jihadist ideology propagated within Britain's Muslim community. Rather than make excuses for the murderers and their army of teachers and enablers, Blair began formulating a program to go after Britain's jihadist hotbeds that indoctrinate British born and bred Muslims to wage war against their country.

    Yet, as Melanie Phillips points out in painstaking and hair- raising detail in her book Londonistan, Blair's efforts to curb the influence of radical jihadists and undermine their operations were quickly stymied. The multiculturalists who have taken hold of Britain's cultural, intellectual, judicial, ecclesiastical and political life attacked, blocked or watered down every single one of his anti-terror initiatives. In the end, far from winning over his seemingly endless critics, Blair backed down.

    One of Blair's initiatives had been to establish a Task Force which would tackle jihadist Islam that had declared war on Britain. As Phillip's explains, "It would go into [Muslim] communities to actively confront what [Blair] called an 'evil ideology' based on a perversion of Islam and 'defeat it by force of reason.'"

    Yet, with his anti-terror campaign torn to shreds, Blair allowed the very extremists he was seeking to counter to take over the Task Force. Not surprisingly these men - who included Swiss jihad apologist Tarik Ramadan and prominent British Hamas supporters - decided that the proper British response to the homegrown British jihadists who killed 52 of their fellow citizens was to surrender to their demands.

    One of the chief demands of Britain's radical Muslims is for Britain to change its foreign policy regarding Israel and the US. The view that Britain should take a pro-Islamic stance on issues such as Hamas, the US-led campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Iranian nuclear weapons program in order to placate British Muslims has gained currency in British foreign policy circles.

    Labor MP John Denhan, chairman of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee said in September 2005, "We need to recognize that some foreign policy has now a very direct impact on domestic policy. We may well need to …be prepared to change the emphasis of our foreign policy in order to safeguard our security…It is no exaggeration to say that Israeli policy in the occupied territories is not simply a matter of foreign policy - it is a matter of British domestic security as well."

    UNFORTUNATELY, Britain's efforts to appease its Muslim minority have only served to further radicalize its members. While Britain has all but outlawed the use of the phrase "Islamic terrorism;" as the British media studiously refused to publish the cartoons of Muhammed out of respect for British Muslims and systematically distorts the reality of the Palestinian jihad against Israel and the violence in Iraq; and while the British police takes the mildest view of overt Muslim incitement to wage jihad against Britain, the US, Israel and other Western democracies in mosques and on the streets of London, the latest Pew Global Attitudes poll showed that British Muslims have the most radical views of all European Muslims.

    As Amir Taheri noted last week in The Wall Street Journal, only 32 percent of British Muslims have positive views of Jews while 71 percent of French Muslims reportedly have positive views of Jews. A majority of British Muslims hold a dim view of Westerners and 16,000 of them expressed an interest in carrying out terrorist acts.

    ONE OF the casualties of Britain's tilt towards the jihadists is the struggle to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. Last July, as the rotating head of the EU Presidency the British published an appeal to Iran to release political prisoners Akbar Ganji and Nasser Zar-Afshan. In the wake of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's less than democratic electoral victory, Blair said, "It would be a serious mistake if he [Ahmadinejad] thought that we are going to go soft on them, because we are not."

    Today, the British are soft and silent as thousands of Iranian protesters are rounded up, students and workers are brutalized, and women are attacked by secret police. And Britain played a central role in convincing the US to join Britain, France and Germany in trying to buy off the mullahs rather than confront their program to acquire nuclear weapons.

    Indeed, today there is little difference between Britain's policy towards Iran's nuclear weapons program and that of the UN and the Arab and Muslim world. This past weekend, Ahmadinejad hosted the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq, Bahrain, Syria, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as the UN envoy for Iraq and the secretaries general for the Arab League and the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Teheran.

    After participating Friday in a demonstration calling for Israel's destruction, Ahmadinejad addressed his distinguished audience and explained, "The basic problem in the Islamic world is the existence of the Zionist regime, and the Islamic world and the region must mobilize to remove this problem."

    He went on to say that anyone who supports Israel should expect to be attacked and demanded that Israel's supporters get rid of Israel themselves or face the wrath of Islam.

    Although this was not the first time that Ahmadinejad specifically called for the eradication of Israel, his speech is nonetheless newsworthy because of his audience. Not only did none of those assembled condemn his call for Israel's destruction, they issued a condemnation of Israel of their own. They attacked Israel for "increasing aggression against the Palestinian people" and condemned the "silence" of the international community. The Teheran demonstrations were followed by similar ones in Turkey.

    FOR ITS part the so-called international community in the EU and the UN leapt into action. Both issued statements condemning Israel for using "disproportionate force" against Palestinian terrorists in Gaza. And like the Arab and Muslim states, neither the EU nor the UN felt the need to say anything at all about Iran's threat to "remove" Israel.

    Phillips wrote Londonistan for the American rather than the British audience. She explained that she wanted to alert the Americans to the true status of their closest ally and by extension of the Anglo-American alliance. If Britain surrenders to the forces of jihad it will spell both a national security nightmare and a political disaster for America. As Phillips notes, on a cultural level, "Britain's already calamitous slide into cultural defeatism might boost similar forces at play in the United States."

    Unfortunately, from the looks of things, those forces seem to have taken over the Bush administration. Like the British and the EU, Washington had no response to Ahmadinejad's latest statement of intentions about Israel and the rest of the Western world. Nor did the administration have anything to say about the silence of the Arab and Muslim states and the UN whose representatives seemed to accept Ahmadinejad's remarks.

    Rather, on Friday, President George W. Bush stated that he sees reason for hope that the international community will come together to prevent Iran from achieving nuclear weapons during the upcoming G-8 summit in Moscow. Moreover, on Saturday the Washington Post reported that Bush will announce a dramatic policy shift at the opening of that summit. Instead of attacking Russia for blocking all concerted international responses to Iran's nuclear weapons program, Bush will announce that he is rewarding Russian despot Vladimir Putin and risking the alienation of the Republican Congress in an election year by agreeing to sign a civilian nuclear cooperation deal with the man most responsible for Iran's free hand in developing nuclear weapons.

    Bush's apologists claim that the deal will act as an incentive for getting Putin to stop supporting Iran and North Korea. Yet that rings hollow. It is hard to find compelling examples of states who behaved better after their bad behavior was rewarded.

    One year after the London bombings, with Britain slouching towards dhimmitude and the Bush Doctrine in shambles, it is hard to keep from wondering what it will take for the free nations of the world to abandon appeasement and fight for victory.

    Said better than I EVER could, Brits!!!!

  9. Personally, I blame Hamas. Same as you I feel very sorry for civilians in Lenanon, especially women and children who are caught up in the violence. All you can hope is the Red Cross can get into the battle zone and help to get the innocents out.
    However, my sympathy extends to all human beings on both sides, not just the side I happen to agree with on the military side. I feel sorry for Israeli women and children and Lebanese children alike.

    darkboong said:

    Israel is also making big problems for other countries. Last time I checked Israel still had all it's airports, ports and had suffered very few casualities. By contrast Lebanon has had the majority of it's transport infrastructure knocked out, and has suffered over eighty dead civillians. Israel has *direct* responsibility for the casualties it creates.

  10. Here is what Melanie Phillips only just wrote:

    At the very heart of this war is Iran. Earlier this week the Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrullah said the world would soon see the demise of Israel. What we are now seeing may be the start of a new offensive by Iran against the free world. Israel is our collective front line; Iran has made that plain enough, even though we have not had ears to listen. Thanks to the pusillanimity of the world, Iran is on a roll. It has repeatedly threatened to destroy Israel and wage war against the west and yet the free world has done nothing except wring its hands. Iran has watched with scarcely concealed contempt as Europe and the UN pursue their farcical attempts to pressure it into abandoning its nuclear weapons programme while America, the wounded behemoth, licks its wounds over Iraq.

    In light of this fact, the reaction of the British and western media and chattering classes to Israel’s current behaviour is beyond farce. So blinded are they by their fixation that Israel is the aggressor and regional bully that even when Israel is plainly attacked in acts of unprovoked aggression they still blame Israel for causing the crisis.

    The BBC, as ever, has been playing a sickening role in this propaganda. On the World Service, it denied the fact that Israeli soldiers had been kidnapped on Israel’s own soil, calling the kidnapping of Cpl Shalit a ‘capture in (sic) Gaza’ and the kidnap of the two soldiers in the north of Israel a capture in ‘south Lebanon’.

    It has repeatedly presented the Israelis as the aggressors. BBC News Online described Israel’s actions as a ‘major offensive’. On the Today programme this morning (0810) it blamed Israel for ‘upping the ante’. The assumption is — fantastically —that it is Israel, rather than Iran, which is the danger to peace. Israel, it seems, must therefore not be allowed to defend itself when rockets are fired at its towns and cities. When it does so it is called ‘collective punishment’ or a ‘disproportionate response’ involving ‘massive collateral damage’, as was said on BBC Radio Four’s Moral Maze last night.

    As this emergency escalates and the casualty toll inevitably mounts, let us just remind ourselves at this stage what this alleged ‘collective punishment’ or ‘disproportionate response’ in Gaza consisted of.

    As this report notes:

    At the Karni crossing [from Israel into Gaza], over 100 truckloads of food and 14 generators were allowed in and at the Nahal Oz fuel terminal, 500,000 litres of diesel, 100,000 litres of gasoline and 125 tons of natural gas were allowed in. Earlier in the week, more than 265 tons of food, a truckload of medicine, over a 1,000,000 liters of fuel, 65,000 litres of chlorine and additional supplies were transferred in. Last week, more than 200 truckloads of food, 1,500,000 litres of fuel, and over 400 tons of natural gas passed into Gaza. Israel also continues to provide Gaza with an uninterrupted supply of water.

    The claims of a humanitarian disaster were therefore wholly untrue.

    Much of the electricity supply which went down after the strike on Gaza’s power station was restored within hours. Gaza obtains fifty percent of its electricity from the Ashkelon power station in Israel — a plant which, incidentally, Hamas has repeatedly tried to hit —and following the strike on the Gaza power station Israel upped this percentage to compensate. Some collective punishment!

    The Kassam rockets which were being fired into Israel from Gaza were dismissed (by Channel Four News’s Jon Snow and the BBC) as crude home made devices that threatened no-one. In fact, they have killed 13 Israelis and wounded more than forty others. By contrast, the vast majority of Palestinians who have been killed have been armed gunmen and terrorist godfathers. Yes, there have been Palestinian civilian casualties and these are always tragic. But in war, this happens. And the fact is that Israel has not gone in for indiscriminate bombing in Gaza. Indeed, this morning’s news was almost comic in the circumstances — that it had bombed the Gaza foreign ministry building at night when it was empty, precisely to avoid civilian casualties, only wounding three people.

    This crisis has developed because the world has failed to deal with Iran and Syria. President Bush described Hezbollah as a ‘group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace’. Not so. Iran is a terrorist state and Hezbollah is its army. The US is sitting on its hands over Iran while urging ‘restraint’ upon Israel, its victim. The world will not be safe unless and until Iran and Syria are stopped. And there is only one country that can do that, and it is not Israel.

    ptlwp said:

    [center]Our World: After Londonistan
    Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST
    July 11, 2006

    [/center]
    In the wake of last year's terror attacks on London, the people of Britain seemed muster the will to rally around their flag. After years of denial, the country that gave Israel the British jihad bombers who blew up Mike's Place in 2003; gave Pakistan and America Daniel Pearl's British jihadist executioner; and gave America the British jihadist shoe bomber finally acknowledged that British jihadists were a problem for Britain.

    British Prime Minister Tony Blair started to admit that the source of the terror was not poverty, Iraq, Afghanistan or Israel but the jihadist ideology propagated within Britain's Muslim community. Rather than make excuses for the murderers and their army of teachers and enablers, Blair began formulating a program to go after Britain's jihadist hotbeds that indoctrinate British born and bred Muslims to wage war against their country.

    Yet, as Melanie Phillips points out in painstaking and hair- raising detail in her book Londonistan, Blair's efforts to curb the influence of radical jihadists and undermine their operations were quickly stymied. The multiculturalists who have taken hold of Britain's cultural, intellectual, judicial, ecclesiastical and political life attacked, blocked or watered down every single one of his anti-terror initiatives. In the end, far from winning over his seemingly endless critics, Blair backed down.

    One of Blair's initiatives had been to establish a Task Force which would tackle jihadist Islam that had declared war on Britain. As Phillip's explains, "It would go into [Muslim] communities to actively confront what [Blair] called an 'evil ideology' based on a perversion of Islam and 'defeat it by force of reason.'"

    Yet, with his anti-terror campaign torn to shreds, Blair allowed the very extremists he was seeking to counter to take over the Task Force. Not surprisingly these men - who included Swiss jihad apologist Tarik Ramadan and prominent British Hamas supporters - decided that the proper British response to the homegrown British jihadists who killed 52 of their fellow citizens was to surrender to their demands.

    One of the chief demands of Britain's radical Muslims is for Britain to change its foreign policy regarding Israel and the US. The view that Britain should take a pro-Islamic stance on issues such as Hamas, the US-led campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Iranian nuclear weapons program in order to placate British Muslims has gained currency in British foreign policy circles.

    Labor MP John Denhan, chairman of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee said in September 2005, "We need to recognize that some foreign policy has now a very direct impact on domestic policy. We may well need to …be prepared to change the emphasis of our foreign policy in order to safeguard our security…It is no exaggeration to say that Israeli policy in the occupied territories is not simply a matter of foreign policy - it is a matter of British domestic security as well."

    UNFORTUNATELY, Britain's efforts to appease its Muslim minority have only served to further radicalize its members. While Britain has all but outlawed the use of the phrase "Islamic terrorism;" as the British media studiously refused to publish the cartoons of Muhammed out of respect for British Muslims and systematically distorts the reality of the Palestinian jihad against Israel and the violence in Iraq; and while the British police takes the mildest view of overt Muslim incitement to wage jihad against Britain, the US, Israel and other Western democracies in mosques and on the streets of London, the latest Pew Global Attitudes poll showed that British Muslims have the most radical views of all European Muslims.

    As Amir Taheri noted last week in The Wall Street Journal, only 32 percent of British Muslims have positive views of Jews while 71 percent of French Muslims reportedly have positive views of Jews. A majority of British Muslims hold a dim view of Westerners and 16,000 of them expressed an interest in carrying out terrorist acts.

    ONE OF the casualties of Britain's tilt towards the jihadists is the struggle to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. Last July, as the rotating head of the EU Presidency the British published an appeal to Iran to release political prisoners Akbar Ganji and Nasser Zar-Afshan. In the wake of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's less than democratic electoral victory, Blair said, "It would be a serious mistake if he [Ahmadinejad] thought that we are going to go soft on them, because we are not."

    Today, the British are soft and silent as thousands of Iranian protesters are rounded up, students and workers are brutalized, and women are attacked by secret police. And Britain played a central role in convincing the US to join Britain, France and Germany in trying to buy off the mullahs rather than confront their program to acquire nuclear weapons.

    Indeed, today there is little difference between Britain's policy towards Iran's nuclear weapons program and that of the UN and the Arab and Muslim world. This past weekend, Ahmadinejad hosted the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq, Bahrain, Syria, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as the UN envoy for Iraq and the secretaries general for the Arab League and the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Teheran.

    After participating Friday in a demonstration calling for Israel's destruction, Ahmadinejad addressed his distinguished audience and explained, "The basic problem in the Islamic world is the existence of the Zionist regime, and the Islamic world and the region must mobilize to remove this problem."

    He went on to say that anyone who supports Israel should expect to be attacked and demanded that Israel's supporters get rid of Israel themselves or face the wrath of Islam.

    Although this was not the first time that Ahmadinejad specifically called for the eradication of Israel, his speech is nonetheless newsworthy because of his audience. Not only did none of those assembled condemn his call for Israel's destruction, they issued a condemnation of Israel of their own. They attacked Israel for "increasing aggression against the Palestinian people" and condemned the "silence" of the international community. The Teheran demonstrations were followed by similar ones in Turkey.

    FOR ITS part the so-called international community in the EU and the UN leapt into action. Both issued statements condemning Israel for using "disproportionate force" against Palestinian terrorists in Gaza. And like the Arab and Muslim states, neither the EU nor the UN felt the need to say anything at all about Iran's threat to "remove" Israel.

    Phillips wrote Londonistan for the American rather than the British audience. She explained that she wanted to alert the Americans to the true status of their closest ally and by extension of the Anglo-American alliance. If Britain surrenders to the forces of jihad it will spell both a national security nightmare and a political disaster for America. As Phillips notes, on a cultural level, "Britain's already calamitous slide into cultural defeatism might boost similar forces at play in the United States."

    Unfortunately, from the looks of things, those forces seem to have taken over the Bush administration. Like the British and the EU, Washington had no response to Ahmadinejad's latest statement of intentions about Israel and the rest of the Western world. Nor did the administration have anything to say about the silence of the Arab and Muslim states and the UN whose representatives seemed to accept Ahmadinejad's remarks.

    Rather, on Friday, President George W. Bush stated that he sees reason for hope that the international community will come together to prevent Iran from achieving nuclear weapons during the upcoming G-8 summit in Moscow. Moreover, on Saturday the Washington Post reported that Bush will announce a dramatic policy shift at the opening of that summit. Instead of attacking Russia for blocking all concerted international responses to Iran's nuclear weapons program, Bush will announce that he is rewarding Russian despot Vladimir Putin and risking the alienation of the Republican Congress in an election year by agreeing to sign a civilian nuclear cooperation deal with the man most responsible for Iran's free hand in developing nuclear weapons.

    Bush's apologists claim that the deal will act as an incentive for getting Putin to stop supporting Iran and North Korea. Yet that rings hollow. It is hard to find compelling examples of states who behaved better after their bad behavior was rewarded.

    One year after the London bombings, with Britain slouching towards dhimmitude and the Bush Doctrine in shambles, it is hard to keep from wondering what it will take for the free nations of the world to abandon appeasement and fight for victory.

    Said better than I EVER could, Brits!!!!

  11. AHHHHHHHHHHHH, I NEED MY TINFOIL HATS!

  12. TrekDedicated said:

    AHHHHHHHHHHHH, I NEED MY TINFOIL HATS!

    Tin Foil pampers. Cover your a**!

  13. darkboong said:

    The bigger picture also includes the Occupation of the Golan Heights for the thick end of 40 years, not to mention the occasional missile, sonic boom and artillery shelling of Syria over the years. The bigger picture also includes some of Israeli's proxies, like the militia that Israel funded, armed and ultimately let into Sabra & Shatilla to rape and murder several thousand Palestinian women and children.

    None of that justifies the first degree murder of scores of Lebanese civillians, or the indiscriminate attacks on their supply infrastructure. To be brutally honest responding to attacks on the IDF with indiscriminate attacks on civillians is criminal and unjustifiable.

    "Provoked" or not, Israel has just committed first degree mass murder of innocent civillians. There is no way you can justify that with self-delusion, paranoia and conspiracy theories.

    Funny way of going about it. So far the stats and weaponry are all very much in Israel's favour. They have successfully murdered scores of innocent civillians with practically no loss of their own (most of the Israeli casualties are soldiers). They haven't even broken out the nukes yet.

    Too late, Israel has already murdered scores of innocent Civillians in this one operation, but they clearly don't count as "innocent lives" to you.

    Debatable, he leaves a hell of a lot of Iranians stone cold. One thing is for sure though : Halutz, Sharoni and Olmert have worked wonders on you.


    No way Jose, I don't listen much to pol's of any stripe. I read historical pieces and make myself think for myself and decide what issues I can believe and what I can't.

    As I have posted before, gracias Neil Young: "Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong.

    There is blame enough to go around for everyone to have some....but, "All it takes for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do NOTHING". Sir Edmund Burke

  14. Carrera said:


    Here is what Melanie Phillips only just wrote:

    Ah, the Amateur Ethnic Cleansing Enthusiast puts her oar in.

    Carrera said:


    So blinded are they by their fixation that Israel is the aggressor and regional bully that even when Israel is plainly attacked in acts of unprovoked aggression they still blame Israel for causing the crisis.

    It is not unprovoked aggression though, that is a fundamental flaw in your argument and it has clearly twisted your reasoning to the point where you justify the mass murder of civillians. Israel's acts of aggression simply don't factor into your assessment of the situation, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire for over a year during which time the IDF continued to kill them, their families and bystanders by the score.

    Carrera said:


    The BBC, as ever, has been playing a sickening role in this propaganda. On the World Service, it denied the fact that Israeli soldiers had been kidnapped on Israel’s own soil, calling the kidnapping of Cpl Shalit a ‘capture in (sic) Gaza’ and the kidnap of the two soldiers in the north of Israel a capture in ‘south Lebanon’.

    It is actually a capture, that is because they are servicemen in a combat zone. They are Prisoners of War, they have rights under the Geneva Convention too (as do the militants captured by Israel in war zones). Mel P can't have it both ways, they can't be civillians with military issue weapons.

    The IDF themselves said that the attack happened in Gaza - she should check the press releases. The Hezbollah capture has been reported to have occurred within the occupied terroritories within Israel, ie : pre 1967 borders. The Israeli soldiers would not even be there if Israel obeyed international law.

    Carrera said:


    It has repeatedly presented the Israelis as the aggressors. BBC News Online described Israel’s actions as a ‘major offensive’.

    It is a major offensive by the Israeli government's own words. If she doesn't like the BBC reporting what the Israeli government says verbatim maybe she should ask the Israeli government to tone down the war-drums.

    Carrera said:


    Israel, it seems, must therefore not be allowed to defend itself when rockets are fired at its towns and cities.

    Killing unarmed civillians makes no contribution to "Defending" yourself. Israel has made little tangible effort to exclusively attack military apparatus and militants (that would count as "defending" itself).

    Carrera said:


    When it does so it is called ‘collective punishment’ or a ‘disproportionate response’ involving ‘massive collateral damage’, as was said on BBC Radio Four’s Moral Maze last night.

    I would debate the use of the term "collateral damage", they targeted civillian infrastructure, they destroyed it. It can't be classified as collateral damage because the intended target was destroyed.

    Carrera said:


    At the Karni crossing [from Israel into Gaza], over 100 truckloads of food and 14 generators were allowed in and at the Nahal Oz fuel terminal, 500,000 litres of diesel, 100,000 litres of gasoline and 125 tons of natural gas were allowed in. Earlier in the week, more than 265 tons of food, a truckload of medicine, over a 1,000,000 liters of fuel, 65,000 litres of chlorine and additional supplies were transferred in. Last week, more than 200 truckloads of food, 1,500,000 litres of fuel, and over 400 tons of natural gas passed into Gaza. Israel also continues to provide Gaza with an uninterrupted supply of water.

    That ain't gonna last long, because the borders have been closed for nigh on six months, the Gazan's had already run out of most of those supplies *before* the IDF destroyed their main source of power. You would know that if you read beyond the headlines, Mel P, and the IDF press releases. Aid agencies had already issued statements regarding the shortage of all those supplies at the beginning of this year. Too little too late. 🙁

    Carrera said:


    The claims of a humanitarian disaster were therefore wholly untrue.

    The people who are qualified and actually on the ground are in a far better position to make that call than either you or Mel P. Their goal is to save lives, you and Mel P appear to have the goal of eliminating all traces of Palestinian society from Israel, I trust their call on that rather than yours.

    Carrera said:


    Much of the electricity supply which went down after the strike on Gaza’s power station was restored within hours.

    Sources please. According to the reports of people actually in Gaza the Ashkelon supply was cut off many months ago, Israel went to the extent of destroying the power cables.

    Carrera said:


    Gaza obtains fifty percent of its electricity from the Ashkelon power station in Israel — a plant which, incidentally, Hamas has repeatedly tried to hit —and following the strike on the Gaza power station Israel upped this percentage to compensate. Some collective punishment!

    When did they attack Ashekelon power station ? Says who ? Hamas has observed a 16 month ceasefire right up until June this year, that leaves a pretty narrow window for them attacking the power station.

    [quote="Carrera"]
    The Kassam rockets which were being fired into Israel from Gaza were dismissed (by Channel Four News’s Jon Snow and the BBC) as crude home made devices that threatened no-one. [B]In fact, they have killed 13 Israelis and wounded more than forty others.
    [/QUOTE]

    Source please, you haven't specified the time period. In just 9 months Israel slayed 47 civillians with artillery shells, and wounded *hundreds* (as reported in another post I made, go find it yourself for the source). Given the material impact the threat assessment appears to be entirely correct. They are also not production line items unlike 155mm shells.

    Carrera said:


    By contrast, the vast majority of Palestinians who have been killed have been armed gunmen and terrorist godfathers.



    Demonstratably false. Sources and raw figures please.

    Carrera said:


    [/B] Yes, there have been Palestinian civilian casualties and these are always tragic. But in war, this happens. And the fact is that Israel has not gone in for indiscriminate bombing in Gaza. Indeed, this morning’s news was almost comic in the circumstances — that it had bombed the Gaza foreign ministry building at night when it was empty, precisely to avoid civilian casualties, only wounding three people.



    One strike on an allegedly empty building doesn't magically wipe the thousands of other *indiscriminate* strikes from the history books (except perhaps in Mel P's library).

    Carrera said:


    This crisis has developed because the world has failed to deal with Iran and Syria.



    Prove it. As far as I can tell it has emerged because of an ongoing war of occupation and violence against millions of Arabs over the last 50 years. Then again, the history books in my library don't have all the pages of Israeli aggression torn out of them.

  15. "you still haven't acknowledged the fact that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire for over a year during which time the IDF continued to kill them, their families and bystanders by the score."

    I'm doubt anything I say is going to change your outlook. It's a case of you having your views and myself having mine. I don't accept Hamas ever held a ceasefire. They've been sending suicide bombers into Israel repeatedly and firing scores of rockets while making no formal declaration of their aggressions.
    Likewise, they have been kidnapping foreigners, even a British aid-worker. The situation became intolerable.

    "The Hezbollah capture has been reported to have occurred within the occupied terroritories within Israel, ie : pre 1967 borders. The Israeli soldiers would not even be there if Israel obeyed international law."

    There are scores of global territorial disputes involving borders and partitions after conflict. What do you think the Brits are doing in Argentina - hardly a part of the British Isles? Are they obeying international law to the letter? Should the Argentinians, therefore, fire home-made rockets at the U.K. or send their kids over the border with explosive suicide belts? What would Blair do in such a case scenario?

    The point is Israel went to war in the sixties and won that conflict. Now the conflict has re-opened and somehow it will have to be decided once again by open warfare.

    "Killing unarmed civillians makes no contribution to "Defending" yourself. Israel has made little tangible effort to exclusively attack military apparatus and militants (that would count as "defending" itself)."

    Personally, I've always believed civilians need to be protected in these situations but, sadly, other countries don't set an example by their own conduct and it's not just Israel who is at fault.
    NATO bombed schools, bridges, power plants and schools in Serbia, correct? The allies purposefully bombed civilian Germans in WW2. Russia bombed Chechnya so hard it became a heap of ruins and may I point out the U.N. wasn't allowed any access into Chechnya.

    "The people who are qualified and actually on the ground are in a far better position to make that call than either you or Mel P."

    Sad as it is to see civilians get hurt, at least aid-workers are actually being allowed in and even the Beeb is right there in Lebanon. Did Russia let aid-workers into Chechnya so there could be some account of the possible rapes that took place, for example? Yet Russia is now lecturing us all on restraint?

    "Sources please. According to the reports of people actually in Gaza the Ashkelon supply was cut off many months ago, Israel went to the extent of destroying the power cables."

    In my experience M.P. is pretty reliable. She appears on the BBC and other media stations and she knows better than to make things up. She has a website so you could maybe ask her for her sources.

    "In just 9 months Israel slayed 47 civillians with artillery shells, and wounded *hundreds* (as reported in another post I made, go find it yourself for the source)."

    An estimated 500, 000 civilians died in Iraq and many many thousands died in Chechnya as well as Serbia.
    I keep repeating that it's wrong to involve civilians in conflict no matter who is involved, Israel, America, Russia or Britain. Obviously the point you are making is you believe Israel deliberately targets civilians yet civilian casualties so far are proportionally lower than in Iraq and Chechnya. If Israel was deliberately targeting civilians as you claim, you would expect higher casualties for civilians in this conflict than took place in Iraq, Serbia and Chechnya.
    I also note the IDF wears a uniform while Hamas does not.
    To my mind, I think Iran has purposefully encouraged the current conflict to distract the U.N. away from the WMD issue Iran's being pressured over. In Israel and the U.S. this is understood quite clearly.

    darkboong said:

    Ah, the Amateur Ethnic Cleansing Enthusiast puts her oar in.

    It is not unprovoked aggression though, that is a fundamental flaw in your argument and it has clearly twisted your reasoning to the point where you justify the mass murder of civillians. Israel's acts of aggression simply don't factor into your assessment of the situation, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire for over a year during which time the IDF continued to kill them, their families and bystanders by the score.

    It is actually a capture, that is because they are servicemen in a combat zone. They are Prisoners of War, they have rights under the Geneva Convention too (as do the militants captured by Israel in war zones). Mel P can't have it both ways, they can't be civillians with military issue weapons.

    The IDF themselves said that the attack happened in Gaza - she should check the press releases. The Hezbollah capture has been reported to have occurred within the occupied terroritories within Israel, ie : pre 1967 borders. The Israeli soldiers would not even be there if Israel obeyed international law.

    It is a major offensive by the Israeli government's own words. If she doesn't like the BBC reporting what the Israeli government says verbatim maybe she should ask the Israeli government to tone down the war-drums.

    Killing unarmed civillians makes no contribution to "Defending" yourself. Israel has made little tangible effort to exclusively attack military apparatus and militants (that would count as "defending" itself).

    I would debate the use of the term "collateral damage", they targeted civillian infrastructure, they destroyed it. It can't be classified as collateral damage because the intended target was destroyed.

    That ain't gonna last long, because the borders have been closed for nigh on six months, the Gazan's had already run out of most of those supplies *before* the IDF destroyed their main source of power. You would know that if you read beyond the headlines, Mel P, and the IDF press releases. Aid agencies had already issued statements regarding the shortage of all those supplies at the beginning of this year. Too little too late. 🙁

    The people who are qualified and actually on the ground are in a far better position to make that call than either you or Mel P. Their goal is to save lives, you and Mel P appear to have the goal of eliminating all traces of Palestinian society from Israel, I trust their call on that rather than yours.

    Sources please. According to the reports of people actually in Gaza the Ashkelon supply was cut off many months ago, Israel went to the extent of destroying the power cables.

    When did they attack Ashekelon power station ? Says who ? Hamas has observed a 16 month ceasefire right up until June this year, that leaves a pretty narrow window for them attacking the power station.

    Source please, you haven't specified the time period. In just 9 months Israel slayed 47 civillians with artillery shells, and wounded *hundreds* (as reported in another post I made, go find it yourself for the source). Given the material impact the threat assessment appears to be entirely correct. They are also not production line items unlike 155mm shells.

    Demonstratably false. Sources and raw figures please.

    One strike on an allegedly empty building doesn't magically wipe the thousands of other *indiscriminate* strikes from the history books (except perhaps in Mel P's library).

    Prove it. As far as I can tell it has emerged because of an ongoing war of occupation and violence against millions of Arabs over the last 50 years. Then again, the history books in my library don't have all the pages of Israeli aggression torn out of them.

  16. Official views of the Palestinian Government Hamas:

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

    This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest.

    Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims.'

    [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement"

    darkboong said:

    Ah, the Amateur Ethnic Cleansing Enthusiast puts her oar in.

    It is not unprovoked aggression though, that is a fundamental flaw in your argument and it has clearly twisted your reasoning to the point where you justify the mass murder of civillians. Israel's acts of aggression simply don't factor into your assessment of the situation, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire for over a year during which time the IDF continued to kill them, their families and bystanders by the score.

    It is actually a capture, that is because they are servicemen in a combat zone. They are Prisoners of War, they have rights under the Geneva Convention too (as do the militants captured by Israel in war zones). Mel P can't have it both ways, they can't be civillians with military issue weapons.

    The IDF themselves said that the attack happened in Gaza - she should check the press releases. The Hezbollah capture has been reported to have occurred within the occupied terroritories within Israel, ie : pre 1967 borders. The Israeli soldiers would not even be there if Israel obeyed international law.

    It is a major offensive by the Israeli government's own words. If she doesn't like the BBC reporting what the Israeli government says verbatim maybe she should ask the Israeli government to tone down the war-drums.

    Killing unarmed civillians makes no contribution to "Defending" yourself. Israel has made little tangible effort to exclusively attack military apparatus and militants (that would count as "defending" itself).

    I would debate the use of the term "collateral damage", they targeted civillian infrastructure, they destroyed it. It can't be classified as collateral damage because the intended target was destroyed.

    That ain't gonna last long, because the borders have been closed for nigh on six months, the Gazan's had already run out of most of those supplies *before* the IDF destroyed their main source of power. You would know that if you read beyond the headlines, Mel P, and the IDF press releases. Aid agencies had already issued statements regarding the shortage of all those supplies at the beginning of this year. Too little too late. 🙁

    The people who are qualified and actually on the ground are in a far better position to make that call than either you or Mel P. Their goal is to save lives, you and Mel P appear to have the goal of eliminating all traces of Palestinian society from Israel, I trust their call on that rather than yours.

    Sources please. According to the reports of people actually in Gaza the Ashkelon supply was cut off many months ago, Israel went to the extent of destroying the power cables.

    When did they attack Ashekelon power station ? Says who ? Hamas has observed a 16 month ceasefire right up until June this year, that leaves a pretty narrow window for them attacking the power station.

    Source please, you haven't specified the time period. In just 9 months Israel slayed 47 civillians with artillery shells, and wounded *hundreds* (as reported in another post I made, go find it yourself for the source). Given the material impact the threat assessment appears to be entirely correct. They are also not production line items unlike 155mm shells.

    Demonstratably false. Sources and raw figures please.

    One strike on an allegedly empty building doesn't magically wipe the thousands of other *indiscriminate* strikes from the history books (except perhaps in Mel P's library).

    Prove it. As far as I can tell it has emerged because of an ongoing war of occupation and violence against millions of Arabs over the last 50 years. Then again, the history books in my library don't have all the pages of Israeli aggression torn out of them.

  17. Here's the link:
    http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

  18. Carrera said:


    "you still haven't acknowledged the fact that Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire for over a year during which time the IDF continued to kill them, their families and bystanders by the score."

    I'm doubt anything I say is going to change your outlook. It's a case of you having your views and myself having mine. I don't accept Hamas ever held a ceasefire.

    They held it whether you believe it or not.

    Carrera said:


    They've been sending suicide bombers into Israel repeatedly and firing scores of rockets while making no formal declaration of their aggressions.

    They agreed to a unilateral ceasefire, they observed it for 16 months. If you can prove otherwise present your evidence, otherwise have the good grace to retract your UNSUBSTANTIATED opinion.

    Carrera said:


    Likewise, they have been kidnapping foreigners, even a British aid-worker. The situation became intolerable.

    That was nothing to do with Hamas to be honest and for the record the IDF shoots British Aid Workers and Journalists as a matter of routine. They appear to get far better treatment from Palestinians all round.

    Carrera said:


    "The Hezbollah capture has been reported to have occurred within the occupied terroritories within Israel, ie : pre 1967 borders. The Israeli soldiers would not even be there if Israel obeyed international law."

    There are scores of global territorial disputes involving borders and partitions after conflict.

    It doesn't matter what you think Crappy, it occurred within an occupied area. Israeli troops are sat there where they should not be, they got shot and they got captured in a warzone (by their own admission) go figure.

    Carrera said:


    What do you think the Brits are doing in Argentina - hardly a part of the British Isles?

    Drinking Cab Sav and eating steaks.

    Carrera said:


    Are they obeying international law to the letter? Should the Argentinians, therefore, fire home-made rockets at the U.K. or send their kids over the border with explosive suicide belts? What would Blair do in such a case scenario?

    I am not going to justify violence Crappy, that's your game not mine. I'm telling you that there is no substitute for negotiation, something that Israel has consistently eschewed in favour of violence. They had some golden opportunities during the ceasefire that you refuse to admit happened.

    Carrera said:


    The point is Israel went to war in the sixties and won that conflict.

    If they had "won" there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left alive in the West Bank and Gaza, as it happens there are plenty of them, albeit on the losing end as far as turf wars go.

    Carrera said:


    Now the conflict has re-opened and somehow it will have to be decided once again by open warfare.

    The conflict didn't stop, you just chose to ignore the bits you don't like.

    Carrera said:


    "Killing unarmed civillians makes no contribution to "Defending" yourself. Israel has made little tangible effort to exclusively attack military apparatus and militants (that would count as "defending" itself)."

    Personally, I've always believed civilians need to be protected in these situations

    Rubbish, you justify attacks on Arab civillians over and over again.

    Carrera said:


    but, sadly, other countries don't set an example by their own conduct and it's not just Israel who is at fault.

    They aimed the weapons at civillians, they pulled the trigger, therefore it is their responsibility. They had the option of not pulling the trigger, or finding another target.

    Carrera said:


    NATO bombed schools, bridges, power plants and schools in Serbia, correct?

    Yeah, and they were just as wrong, I've [censored] about that before too, and funnily enough there were a bunch of people disagreeing with me on the basis that it's OK because their Serbs and some claiming it was OK because there was historic precedent. Rubbish in both cases.

    Carrera said:


    "Sources please. According to the reports of people actually in Gaza the Ashkelon supply was cut off many months ago, Israel went to the extent of destroying the power cables."

    In my experience M.P. is pretty reliable.

    You think that because you ignore any evidence that disagrees with her unsubstantiated opinion.

    Carrera said:


    "In just 9 months Israel slayed 47 civillians with artillery shells, and wounded *hundreds* (as reported in another post I made, go find it yourself for the source)."

    An estimated 500, 000 civilians died in Iraq and many many thousands died in Chechnya as well as Serbia.

    So what ? That doesn't make it OK to kill more civillians, whatever colour they are or how you do it. What the [censored] is wrong with you ?

    Carrera said:


    If Israel was deliberately targeting civilians as you claim, you would expect higher casualties for civilians in this conflict than took place in Iraq, Serbia and Chechnya.

    They drop bombs on residential buildings. If I dropped a 500kg bomb on a block of flats in Tel Aviv or Brighton you would quite rightly assume I was targetting civillians too.

    None of your responses have answered a single point. You have presented absolutely zero evidence to back up your or Mel P's OPINION. Go eat your hat.

  19. Darkboong, you said:

    "I'm telling you that there is no substitute for negotiation, something that Israel has consistently eschewed in favour of violence."

    Now compare what you stated with what Hamas actually believes - this being the elected government of the Palestinians:

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    To my mind, this is what Europe and the U.S. don't quite seem to get. Don't get me wrong: I'm all in favour of reasonable negotiation, give and take, compromise and I actually backed this bilateral 2 state solution that was prosposed by the E.U.. But the point is how can anyone seriously negotiate with the Palestinians now - an Government that states quite clearly (in written format) that 'Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time'?"

    Please note the following section too where the Hamas organization uses words such as "conquered by Islam" and "conquest". This is what they seek - conquest of all land occupied by Israel and the establishment of a totally theocratic Islamic State in Jerusalem. They seek to drive all non-moslems out of the region by rocket fire, suicide bombings and any means available.

    "This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest."

    "If you can prove otherwise present your evidence, otherwise have the good grace to retract your UNSUBSTANTIATED opinion."

    If this discussion upsets you, I have no objection to dropping the topic and maybe moving onto another more cheerful subject than Middle East Politics. It's obvious neither of us is going to agree on the issue. I mean, all I can do is state how the current situation seems to me and why I happen to take the side of Israel. Remember, though, my view in this country is the minority one. Those posts I quoted from the BBC only made up about 20 per cent of the overall feedback which actually blamed Israel, same as the E.U.

    "So what ? That doesn't make it OK to kill more civillians, whatever colour they are or how you do it. What the [censored] is wrong with you ?"

    The IDF very quickly destroyed the airport and roads to Syria for a good reason. It wasn't to punish civilians as the Beeb maintains. It was to cut off the supply source of rockets from Syria to Lebanon and they bombed the airport to stop it being used by jets. The objective is to stop those rocket attacks and cordon off the Jihadists.

    darkboong said:

    They held it whether you believe it or not.

    They agreed to a unilateral ceasefire, they observed it for 16 months. If you can prove otherwise present your evidence, otherwise have the good grace to retract your UNSUBSTANTIATED opinion.

    That was nothing to do with Hamas to be honest and for the record the IDF shoots British Aid Workers and Journalists as a matter of routine. They appear to get far better treatment from Palestinians all round.

    It doesn't matter what you think Crappy, it occurred within an occupied area. Israeli troops are sat there where they should not be, they got shot and they got captured in a warzone (by their own admission) go figure.

    Drinking Cab Sav and eating steaks.

    I am not going to justify violence Crappy, that's your game not mine. I'm telling you that there is no substitute for negotiation, something that Israel has consistently eschewed in favour of violence. They had some golden opportunities during the ceasefire that you refuse to admit happened.

    If they had "won" there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left alive in the West Bank and Gaza, as it happens there are plenty of them, albeit on the losing end as far as turf wars go.

    The conflict didn't stop, you just chose to ignore the bits you don't like.

    Rubbish, you justify attacks on Arab civillians over and over again.

    They aimed the weapons at civillians, they pulled the trigger, therefore it is their responsibility. They had the option of not pulling the trigger, or finding another target.

    Yeah, and they were just as wrong, I've [censored] about that before too, and funnily enough there were a bunch of people disagreeing with me on the basis that it's OK because their Serbs and some claiming it was OK because there was historic precedent. Rubbish in both cases.

    You think that because you ignore any evidence that disagrees with her unsubstantiated opinion.

    So what ? That doesn't make it OK to kill more civillians, whatever colour they are or how you do it. What the [censored] is wrong with you ?

    They drop bombs on residential buildings. If I dropped a 500kg bomb on a block of flats in Tel Aviv or Brighton you would quite rightly assume I was targetting civillians too.

    None of your responses have answered a single point. You have presented absolutely zero evidence to back up your or Mel P's OPINION. Go eat your hat.

  20. Above you wrote the following:

    "Israeli troops are sat there where they should not be, they got shot and they got captured in a warzone (by their own admission) go figure."

    As I understood it, your argument here is that the Israeli military (and people) are situated in an area they shouldn't be but you actually clarifed your reason for why you believe that in the other thread on Gaza where you wrote:

    "The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land."

    Again, I think that latter statement sums your views up perfectly: According to your beliefs, there should be no Jewish State in this particular region of the Middle East as your view is it's a moslem land.
    The only thing I can say in response is you should get hold of a universally recognised history book and read about the history of the region going back to earliest ancient times. Avoid any books written by Palestinian or Jewish historians as these tend to be politically tainted.
    What staggers me is you seem to claim the entire region is a moslem land, apparently excluding the influences of Christianity Judaism and even other religions that came from the East.
    If you're ever going to aproach the subject in a balanced manner, you need to read up on when Judaism, Christianity and Islam made their appearances in the region, the Roman province of Judea and then the colonial influences in more modern times. You can't approach the subject from a one-dimensional religious perspective.

    darkboong said:

    They held it whether you believe it or not.

    They agreed to a unilateral ceasefire, they observed it for 16 months. If you can prove otherwise present your evidence, otherwise have the good grace to retract your UNSUBSTANTIATED opinion.

    That was nothing to do with Hamas to be honest and for the record the IDF shoots British Aid Workers and Journalists as a matter of routine. They appear to get far better treatment from Palestinians all round.

    It doesn't matter what you think Crappy, it occurred within an occupied area. Israeli troops are sat there where they should not be, they got shot and they got captured in a warzone (by their own admission) go figure.

    Drinking Cab Sav and eating steaks.

    I am not going to justify violence Crappy, that's your game not mine. I'm telling you that there is no substitute for negotiation, something that Israel has consistently eschewed in favour of violence. They had some golden opportunities during the ceasefire that you refuse to admit happened.

    If they had "won" there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left alive in the West Bank and Gaza, as it happens there are plenty of them, albeit on the losing end as far as turf wars go.

    The conflict didn't stop, you just chose to ignore the bits you don't like.

    Rubbish, you justify attacks on Arab civillians over and over again.

    They aimed the weapons at civillians, they pulled the trigger, therefore it is their responsibility. They had the option of not pulling the trigger, or finding another target.

    Yeah, and they were just as wrong, I've [censored] about that before too, and funnily enough there were a bunch of people disagreeing with me on the basis that it's OK because their Serbs and some claiming it was OK because there was historic precedent. Rubbish in both cases.

    You think that because you ignore any evidence that disagrees with her unsubstantiated opinion.

    So what ? That doesn't make it OK to kill more civillians, whatever colour they are or how you do it. What the [censored] is wrong with you ?

    They drop bombs on residential buildings. If I dropped a 500kg bomb on a block of flats in Tel Aviv or Brighton you would quite rightly assume I was targetting civillians too.

    None of your responses have answered a single point. You have presented absolutely zero evidence to back up your or Mel P's OPINION. Go eat your hat.

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