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Does Martha Deserve it?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
7 March 2004
Last activity
13 June 2004
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Larry
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  1. On 03/07/2004 10:09 AM, in article [email hidden], "Dave
    Smith" <[email hidden]> opined:

    Quoted message said:
    larry said:

    Well she lied, cheated, stole and got caught.. so I guess
    she deserves to go to JAIL. I think they should fine the
    #%&$ out of her and put her back to work to pay some big
    taxes. But on the other hand those with plenty of money
    are not very afraid of paying a fine.. big deal.. but
    some time in stripes scares nearly everybody.

    I like the system they have in Norway <?> where fines,
    even for traffic violations, are based on income. A $100
    speeding ticket for one of the working poor is a hefty
    penalty, but it means nothing to a millionaire.

    You can't even explain your point. Are you saying the
    fines are more for a millionaire? Sometimes I think your
    are a dumbass.

    The Wolf

  2. Steve Wertz said:

    I think *in* sounds better than *to*. Depends on how you
    use it in a sentence, I guess.

    I think a less ambiguous way of saying what I said is: I
    have visited prison before, but I have never been an inmate.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe they do have different standards for different
    prisons. Even some state prisons allow inmates to wear
    regular clothes (especially female inmates). There are
    some limitations though - like nothing that resembles a
    guards uniform, of course.

    When I visited federal prison I was not allowed to wear
    shorts, even as a visitor. I can understand why they would
    not want women (like prisoners' wives) wearing daisy dukes
    and gettin' a groove on in the

    luck ;-) ). Anyway, even if they do wear normal clothing
    there has to be limitations.

    --
    John Gaughan johngaughan.netjohngaughan.net
    [email hidden]

  3. "<RJ>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Martha acted on a tip from her broker. ( who doesn't ? )
    She acted on it, and got caught

    This was not just a tip from the broker. It was relayed
    information from an inside source. It is illegal. You and I
    don't get tips like she got. Then she lied.

    Maybe she does not deserve 20 years, but there must be some
    punishment for the crime. Ed

  4. Edwin Pawlowski said:

    "<RJ>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Martha acted on a tip from her broker. ( who doesn't ? )
    She acted on it, and got caught

    This was not just a tip from the broker. It was relayed
    information from an inside source. It is illegal. You and
    I don't get tips like she got. Then she lied.

    Maybe she does not deserve 20 years, but there must be
    some punishment for the crime.

    In theory, the court is supposed to take two things into
    consideration. It is supposed to administer a penalty to
    punish a specific deed and to act as a general deterrent. We
    cannot hope to catch every slippery stock transaction and
    then apply a modest penalty, which in some cases is not even
    as high as the profits made from the illegal trades. The
    penalty needs to be high enough that others planning the
    same sort of scams will not be willing to take the risk.

  5. On 03/07/2004 8:40 PM, in article [email hidden], "Dave
    Smith" <[email hidden]> opined:

    Quoted message said:
    Edwin Pawlowski said:

    "<RJ>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Martha acted on a tip from her broker. ( who doesn't ? )
    She acted on it, and got caught

    This was not just a tip from the broker. It was relayed
    information from an inside source. It is illegal. You and
    I don't get tips like she got. Then she lied.

    Maybe she does not deserve 20 years, but there must be
    some punishment for the crime.

    In theory, the court is supposed to take two things into
    consideration. It is supposed to administer a penalty to
    punish a specific deed and to act as a general deterrent.
    We cannot hope to catch every slippery stock transaction
    and then apply a modest penalty, which in some cases is
    not even as high as the profits made from the illegal
    trades. The penalty needs to be high enough that others
    planning the same sort of scams will not be willing to
    take the risk.


    The Wolf is disappointed. Apparently your canadian dumbass
    seems no longer interested in honest banter.

    Back up your points with documentation.

    Boo hoo.
    --
    ==========================================================================

    "If George W. Bush announced that a cure for cancer had been
    discovered,
    Democrats would complain about unemployed laboratory rats,"
    Ann Coulter.
    ==========================================================================

  6. The Wolf said:

    The Wolf is disappointed. Apparently your canadian dumbass
    seems no longer interested in honest banter.

    Back up your points with documentation.

    I side with the Canook. No legal system can catch every
    infraction. Deterrence is key -- make the punishment bad
    enough that people will not want to risk getting caught,
    even if the chance is very slim. The other side of the issue
    is to put in safeguards so the wrongly accused can prove
    their innocence.

    --
    John Gaughan johngaughan.netjohngaughan.net
    [email hidden]

  7. notbob said:

    The hot question is, is Martha gonna toss a salad!!
    (OBfood)

    Funny... of course, isn't she single? Or, more accurately,
    she does not have a husband?

    Tossing the ol' salad is fairly gross, unless of course you
    are talking about lettuce and dressing ;-)

    --
    John Gaughan johngaughan.netjohngaughan.net
    [email hidden]

  8. Levelwave© said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why jail? Her's was a non-violent crime. Since it was
    financial in nature, it would seem appropriate that the
    punishment should be financial as well.

    Since when has our judicial system ever been based on an
    "Eye for an Eye"?

    I never said our judicial system was. I was questioning
    why "she deserves to go to JAIL" when her's was a non-
    violent crime.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Prison isn't a deterrant...

    Right. It is a punishment.

    The OP said "some time in stripes scares nearly everybody."
    I was responding that it does *not* scare nearly everybody;
    those who commit crimes do so thinking they will never be
    caught and, therefore, aren't deterred by punishment since
    they expect to never receive any.

    --
    Darryl L. Pierce <[email hidden]> Visit the Infobahn
    Offramp - <http://mypage.org/mcpierce> "What do you care
    what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"

  9. ben said:
    Darryl L. Pierce said:

    Prison isn't a deterrant. It never has been. People who
    commit crimes do so with the belief that they're never
    get *caught*.

    I would think that prison would make the person come out
    worse having to associate with all the other criminals in
    there. You get a nice mix of different types of
    crookedness to rub off on you.

    Exactly! It becomes a staging area for the next wave of
    criminal activity since the person is now a convicted felon
    and less likely to get a real job. But, my question (not for
    you personally) on this subject just boils down to this: why
    do non-violent crimes *require* any jailtime (in reference
    to the OP's message)? If it's not a deterrant, and it
    doesn't make things better nor does it rehabilitate them,
    then of what use is sending someone who committed a crime
    like insider trading to prison for 4 years? When she comes
    out she'll still have her money. It seems that fining her
    proportionally to her income and/or net worth is much more
    effective and meaningful.

    Quoted message said:

    I won't say what I think the solution is :-)

    Now you've piqued my curiosity... Send it in email if you
    don't want to say it in here. I have a research paper due
    and I'm now considering writing it on why non-violent crimes
    should not receive any jailtime.

    --
    Darryl L. Pierce <[email hidden]> Visit the Infobahn
    Offramp - <http://mypage.org/mcpierce> "What do you care
    what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"

  10. Nexis said:


    Quoted message said:


    Of course not, because to her, a fine of a few thousand
    dollars is pocket change. That same fine would ruin my
    finances for years. Fines should be proportionate to the
    person's net worth. Martha probably has a few hundred
    million dollars worth of assets, so fine her half. Even
    to a multi-millionare, half of her money is a huge blow.

    Except that the fines are already more than a few thousand
    bucks...not to mention she lost 1/4 of her worth the day
    she was convicted. She was worth around 4.5 million in the
    morning, down to just over 3 in the afternoon.

    But what about the honest people who lost a substantial
    portion of their hard earned savings because of her crooked
    dealings? There have been a significant number of crooked
    stock deals. People have invested their savings under the
    belief that properly invested money will grow and provide
    them with financial security, and at the same time, helping
    the national economy to grow. Meanwhile, shifty CEOs and
    major investors are working out crooked deals to grab a
    quick profit at the expense of the legitimate investors.

  11. Darryl L. Pierce said:

    I never said our judicial system was. I was questioning
    why "she deserves to go to JAIL" when her's was a non-
    violent crime.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Prison isn't a deterrant...

    Right. It is a punishment.

    The OP said "some time in stripes scares nearly
    everybody." I was responding that it does *not* scare
    nearly everybody; those who commit crimes do so thinking
    they will never be caught and, therefore, aren't deterred
    by punishment since they expect to never receive any.

    You have a point. Some people have been getting away with it
    completely, and those who have been charged and convicted
    have received fines that are insignificant enough that it
    has been worth their while. What the heck. Rip off the
    shareholders for a few million dollars and pay a few hundred
    thousand in fines and you are still far ahead. The fines do
    little more than to take a slice out of the illegal profits.

    More stringent controls on the market and more rigorous
    prosecution will increase the risk of getting caught.
    Increase the penalties to the point where illegal trading
    activities will result in a real loss and/or jail time. The
    increased probability of getting caught and suffering make
    the risk less attractive.

  12. Steve Wertz said:
    Quoted message said:

    Every Federal prisoner, that I have seen, wore the orange
    jump suit. Of course there may be some that wear normal
    cloths, possibly at the "club fed" prisons.

    They only wear orange jump suits when they travel someplace
    (like court or being transferred to another prison). Have
    you ever actually been *in* a Federal prison, or just seen
    it on TV and the movies?

    -sw

    Yes Steve I have been. That is why I stated those "that I
    have seen". Pan Ohco

  13. Pat Rabideau said:

    The insider trading charges were dismissed, so my question
    is, how can Martha be charged with obstruction of justice
    and lying about something (insider trading) that she
    didn't do? Seems like the dismissal of the first charge
    makes the others a moot point.

    The insider trading charges were dismissed due to a lack
    of evidence on the part of the prosecutors. That does not
    mean Martha did not commit insider trading, only that it
    could not be proven. Perhaps if Martha had not lied to the
    SEC, she would have gotten convicted on the insider
    trading charge.

  14. Pan Ohco said:

    Every Federal prisoner, that I have seen, wore the orange
    jump suit. Of course there may be some that wear normal
    cloths, possibly at the "club fed" prisons.

    There's a state prison near where I live in New Jersey. I
    live across from a park and at least once each spring, I see
    the prisoners out picking up trash and they're dressed in
    all orange attire.

  15. Quoted message said:


    Pat Rabideau said:

    The insider trading charges were dismissed, so my
    question is, how can Martha be charged with obstruction
    of justice and lying about something (insider trading)
    that she didn't do? Seems like the dismissal of the
    first charge makes the others a moot point.

    The insider trading charges were dismissed due to a lack
    of evidence on the part of the prosecutors. That does not
    mean Martha did not commit insider trading, only that it
    could not be proven. Perhaps if Martha had not lied to the
    SEC, she would have gotten convicted on the insider
    trading charge.

    I don't believe she was ever charged with insider trading.
    She can't, she is not an insider. Charges that were
    dismissed were trying to delude her stockholders, I believe,
    by claiming to be innocent ... something like that.

    nancy

  16. notbob said:


    Has justice been served? Not till Ken Lay is a [censored]!

    Hear, Hear!!!

  17. Nancy Young said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The insider trading charges were dismissed, so my
    question is, how can Martha be charged with
    obstruction of justice and lying about something
    (insider trading) that she didn't do? Seems like the
    dismissal of the first charge makes the others a moot
    point.

    The insider trading charges were dismissed due to a lack
    of evidence on the part of the prosecutors. That does
    not mean Martha did not commit insider trading, only
    that it could not be proven. Perhaps if Martha had not
    lied to the SEC, she would have gotten convicted on the
    insider trading charge.

    I don't believe she was ever charged with insider trading.
    She can't, she is not an insider.

    You do not have to be an insider to be guilty of insider
    trading. The person who trades stocks based on information
    that was passed on them by the insider is as guilty as the
    insider who passed it on.

  18. "larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Well she lied, cheated, stole and got caught.. so I guess
    she deserves to go to JAIL. I think they should fine the
    #%&$ out of her and put her back to work to pay some big
    taxes. But on the other hand those with plenty of money
    are not very afraid of paying a fine.. big deal.. but some
    time in stripes scares nearly everybody.

    Laurence

    From today's Washington Times

    Saving the streets from Martha Stewart

    By Wesley Pruden

    We'll all sleep better now, feeling safe and secure in our
    beds (with or without flowered sheets). The feds are finally
    getting Martha Stewart off the streets. Her expensively
    coiffed scalp will look nice on the wall behind the desk of
    the U.S. district attorney who led the prosecution. Martha,
    who insists on things being done right, will help him choose
    the appropriate presentation for her scalp. A mahogany frame
    against a deep red matte ought to set off Martha's blonde
    locks in an elegant and fetching way. Some of the reporters
    and pundits who are offended most by Martha's advocacy of
    grown-up clothes and neat hair, orderly digs, and flowers
    and dishes arranged for a king's most demanding subjects
    haven't had so much fun since the feds hounded Jim and Tammy
    Faye Bakker into prison and oblivion for overbooking their
    hotel. The first juror who spoke up after the verdict called
    throwing Miss Stewart into the slammer a victory for "the
    average guy." You could hear in his voice the triumphant
    note of revenge done well. "Maybe it's a victory for the
    little guy who loses money in the markets because of these
    types of transactions, the people who lose money in 401(k)
    plans," said Chappell Hartridge, 47, a computer programmer
    who talks too much. "Maybe it might give the average guy a
    little more confident feeling that can invest in the market
    and everything will be on the up and up." Well, maybe. But
    making Martha Stewart an example for a seminar on prudent
    investing is a bizarre use of a federal criminal trial,
    particularly since the feds' bill of particulars was thin
    soup to begin with and made more so when the judge threw out
    the charge of insider trading, the only blob of genuine bone
    and fat in the pot. Juror Hartridge and his prejudices, it
    now seems clear, was exactly what the feds were counting on
    to save them from the humiliation of a collapsing railroad
    job. Miss Stewart, by all accounts, is not very nice:
    Arrogance, haughtiness, self-importance and a condescending
    manner are no more attractive in a Connecticut maven of
    gracious living than in, for example, a presidential
    candidate from Massachusetts. A nice Polish girl from New
    Jersey got into trouble in the first place by hanging out
    with the wrong crowd, the swells and belles of the Upper
    East Side who summer on Long Island Sound. She should have
    listened to her mama, who knew that hanging out with the
    wrong crowd is guaranteed to get a girl into trouble, and
    not necessarily the kind of trouble a girl can get into
    between flowered sheets. One of the cable-TV talking heads,
    a woman who was once a federal prosecutor, called Miss
    Stewart the prototypical "rich [censored]," showing up in court
    in her furs, jewels and designer dresses. Indeed, her
    expensive lawyers should have taken her back to New Jersey
    to find a Wal-Mart to deck her out in a peasant frock. They
    could have returned to Lower Manhattan to warn some of her
    celebrity friends, such as Rosie O'Donnell and Bill Cosby,
    to stay away from the courthouse if they really wanted to
    help. "If anything," the voluble Juror Hartridge said of the
    parade of Martha's rich and famous friends, "we may have
    taken it a little as an insult. Is that supposed to sway our
    opinion?" In a word, yes. That's the way lawyers play the
    game. This time, the defense trick worked instead for the
    prosecution. Miss Stewart may be entitled to a rebate from
    her lawyers. But Martha Stewart was not indicted on the
    charge of [censored], witchery or even slickery. She was
    indicted on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice
    and making false statements to federal agents, who are
    themselves enabled by the law to lie. The government even
    suggested that she was guilty of "lying" simply for saying
    that she was innocent of wrongdoing. This is pretty rich
    from the side that gets to mark the cards. We've always
    taken a certain pride in the proposition that in America,
    class doesn't count, that we look out for the poor but don't
    begrudge the rich their wealth. We look to them as an
    example of how to make it to a million-dollar mansion on
    Coffee Pot Lane. Recent decades of class warfare, abetted by
    the rich, the pampered and the celebrated who play at
    populism, have changed that. Greed has replaced religion as
    the national religion, and with greed comes envy. Martha
    Stewart's transgressions were more sins than crimes, and
    learning a little humility is never a bad thing. But when
    the government commits vendetta, the sin becomes a crime.
    The government ought to be ashamed of its bullying self.

    Wesley Pruden is editor in chief of The Times.

  19. Dave Smith said:

    we seem to have a whole new generation of people in
    business who seem to be more interested in manipulating
    stock values and screwing their investors out of their
    money than they are in running a profitable business.

    There's nothing new about stock manipulation. The stock
    market crash of 1929 was the result of it, among other
    things. The SEC was created in the aftermath to try and
    address the problem.

    Stock market manipulation is a part of our national history.
    Almost the entire Kennedy fortune was created by stock
    manipulation (the remainder being the result of very
    profitable rum running operation).

    --
    Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot)
    com

  20. Let he who would not sell stock on a tip, cast the first
    stone. Did Martha Stewart lie? Of course she did. Did she
    have any choice. Absolutely not. Would anybody who has been
    caught smoking pot, claim that he or she is guilty of
    trafficking. Of course not. Clearly, no self respecting
    Prosecutor would expect Martha Stewart to tell the truth,
    under the circumstances, and any suggestion that Martha
    Stewart deserves to go to jail for lying is absolutely
    preposterous.

    Make no mistake about it, Martha Stewart was not prosecuted,
    she was entrapped.

    The jury that convicted Martha Stewart harbors the delusion
    that they have sent a message to the little investor, but
    the exact opposite is in fact true. The jury sent the clear
    message that if you have Republican connections and you lie
    to the American people [somebody like John Poindexter] the
    Federal Government will hire you. If you are Democrat like
    Martha Stewart, you will be entrapped.

    The business of America is business, and Marthe Stewart is
    the very best. This witchhunt has sent the clear message
    that if you are an intelligent business person, and you do
    the right thing [tell a little white lie to protect your
    stockholders] the Federal Government will destroy you. I
    think the idiots who targeted Martha Stewart and turned the
    world of the little investors who relied on the value of her
    company stock, upside down, are as guilty as Enron's, Ken
    Lay is. If Martha Stewart spends a single day in jail, the
    do-nothing regime of an idiotic administration that is
    screwing the small investor, should collapse even faster
    than Howard Dean did.

    geocities.comrise.htm

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