Do you feel the difference?

tiagra will be 10 speed in 07... will it be good? prolly not

willocrew said:

For all you roadies out there who are using on Ultegra and DuraAce and all that high end gearing. I've heard about the durability factor, but what exactly is the difference in feel?

1)People just say that it is smoother. But what exactly is smoother?

FWIW, If I was blindfolded and road my My full Record bike and then my Centaur rig, the only way I could tell them apart would be due to the carbon levers on the Record vs the alloy Centaur levers. They both perform very well. Record uses more bearings while Centaur uses bushings in some of he components, and the weight diff favors Record, but really they both shift quickly and precise. When I had an Ultegra 9 and a 105 bike, I did notice the shifting to be a little mushier with the 105, but not a huge difference.

Phill P said:

What is the weight difference between each group set?

Yup, keep buying Shimano's scam to buy lighter stuff. We are talking weight differences so miniscule to the average ride to make it laughable. All that super light stuff is great when you are getting scads of it for free and don't expect it to last more than a season before getting news grouppos.

PeterF said:

FWIW, If I was blindfolded and road my My full Record bike and then my Centaur rig, the only way I could tell them apart would be due to the carbon levers on the Record vs the alloy Centaur levers. They both perform very well. Record uses more bearings while Centaur uses bushings in some of he components, and the weight diff favors Record, but really they both shift quickly and precise. When I had an Ultegra 9 and a 105 bike, I did notice the shifting to be a little mushier with the 105, but not a huge difference.

But that's different. Campagnolo is well known to work almost equally well across the groups, differentiated mainly on material, weight and aspects of design. Same can't be said of its competitors.

I think I am giving myself a name as an advocate for 105.

Bladegeek, have you tried all of the 2006 stuff (105, ultegra DA) together. If you try them all without any labelling and no different finishes, I bet you could not tell the difference. I was riding beside someone with DA this morning and their bike's drivetrain was clicking and whirring. My 105 drivetrain was silent. Just because it is cheaper does not mean it is worse.

105 will last longer, it has a nicer finish than Ultegra, it has a stiff cranks, the weight differences don't affect us nearly as much as they are perceived to.

I am nearly 100% sure Tiagra is not going to be 10 speed. 105 is the beginning of their 'racing' components.

bobbyOCR said:

I think I am giving myself a name as an advocate for 105.

I am really really slow... But I have already noticed this. 😄

sogood said:

I am really really slow

On a bike or mentally :p

sogood said:

As already discussed in a separate discussion somewhere on the web, this kind of double blinded product testing has led to the premature demise of all testers. Hence the lack of objective data on this and similar subject matters. :o

Yes. I have learned that it is always good to take my blinfold off when riding.

bobbyOCR said:

I think I am giving myself a name as an advocate for 105.

Bladegeek, have you tried all of the 2006 stuff (105, ultegra DA) together. If you try them all without any labelling and no different finishes, I bet you could not tell the difference. I was riding beside someone with DA this morning and their bike's drivetrain was clicking and whirring. My 105 drivetrain was silent. Just because it is cheaper does not mean it is worse.

105 will last longer, it has a nicer finish than Ultegra, it has a stiff cranks, the weight differences don't affect us nearly as much as they are perceived to.

I am nearly 100% sure Tiagra is not going to be 10 speed. 105 is the beginning of their 'racing' components.

I ride Dura Ace and like it but I think you are right. Many people are riding 105, Ultega and have great
results. This is a lot like wine, more money doesn't mean that much.

I'm pretty sure the DA chainrings are aluminum.

You will always feel a slight vibration from any chain drive because the chainline varies as the pins are released and taken up by the chainrings. It varies only due to the pitch of the chain and the diameter of the chainrings

I went from a 105 / other mfg. equipped bike to a full DA equipped one - yes I was a bit concerned about weight. I'm little in the first place and the new bike meant 5 lbs less to me. When you only weigh 103 lbs this is huge. I certainly have noticed the difference. The shifting is much easier on the DA bike, I don't have to haul on the STI to get the front ring shifted and it doesn't make any noise - sometimes I feel like I have to look to see if it actually shifted and it always has even if I haven't heard it. I haven't had any adjustment problems at all with the DA - the 105 is fiddley. I get it all working fine and then the next ride it's clattering again. The DA bike has been rock solid.
The DA brakes are the best I ever used- granted my old bike did not have 105 brakes on it, they are some el-cheapo no name ones and I hate them. I like the way the DA ones perform so much I'm putting a pair on the rain bike I'm building up, because I really, really like to be able to stop.
I'm also putting an ultegra rear derailleur on the rain bike, because the 105 jockey wheels have a metal bearing in them v/s the ceramic one in the ultegra. My old 105 equipped bike always starts chirping when ever I get the darn thing wet, no matter how well I lube those jockeys. Its annoying and worth a few extra bucks to not have to listen to.

The key issue of product comparison is doing it under identical and optimized condition. In terms of 105 vs DA, it would be good to be able to confirm that both are new or in similar state of wear, and are perfectly adjusted. Bad adjustment in one can easily influence the subjective result.

As for the brakes. I have also heard that there are qualitative differences as one moves up the group, especially in the Campag range. Maybe safety can be a selling point for these high range groups.

Since when is there a ceramic bearing in Ultegra? That would put the cost up about $80 or more for the deraileur.

If you had 105 9 speed, yeah its [censored]. The 10 speed design has unanimously been voted a quantum leap from 9 speed.

bobbyOCR said:

Since when is there a ceramic bearing in Ultegra? That would put the cost up about $80 or more for the deraileur.

If you had 105 9 speed, yeah its [censored]. The 10 speed design has unanimously been voted a quantum leap from 9 speed.

There is a ceramic bering in there as far as I know, the last time my husband got a rear derailleur that's how it came. LBS ordered one for me and also some replacement jockeys that definitely have ceramic bearings, just in case, because the catalog doesn't say. My husband will use them if I don't need them - the disadvantage to the ceramic is that you can crack them. The squeaking is enough to make a person insane though and if its $80 more so be it.

Eden said:

There is a ceramic bering in there as far as I know, the last time my husband got a rear derailleur that's how it came. LBS ordered one for me and also some replacement jockeys that definitely have ceramic bearings, just in case, because the catalog doesn't say. My husband will use them if I don't need them - the disadvantage to the ceramic is that you can crack them. The squeaking is enough to make a person insane though and if its $80 more so be it.

They are not ceramic bearings. Ceramic bearings are incredibly hard and are built to take massive forces, they do not 'crack' especially only in a jockey wheel. They are probably ball bearings, but definitely not ceramic as those run an EXTRA $80 (or whatever the price is at) along with the cost of the derailleur. My 105 drivetrain is dead silent, you may have a dud.

bobbyOCR said:

They are not ceramic bearings. Ceramic bearings are incredibly hard and are built to take massive forces, they do not 'crack'....

I beg to differ. You cannot shatter a 1/4" steel bearing ball by whacking it once with a hammer. However, I assure you you can shatter a 1/4" Al2O3 bearing ball by whacking it with a hammer. Silicon nitride is a bit harder than alumina but not exceptionally so. They can't take shear stress very well.

BTW does your jockey wheel have ceramic balls or just a ceramic bushing?

garage sale GT said:

I beg to differ. You cannot shatter a 1/4" steel bearing ball by whacking it once with a hammer. However, I assure you you can shatter a 1/4" Al2O3 bearing ball by whacking it with a hammer. Silicon nitride is a bit harder than alumina but not exceptionally so. They can't take shear stress very well.

BTW does your jockey wheel have ceramic balls or just a ceramic bushing?

Yeah maybe I mean a bushing rather than a bearing - so excuse my terminology - they are tube shaped, not round like ball bearings. However, I assure you they can crack, as the ones in my husbands rear derailleur have cracked.

Eden said:

Yeah maybe I mean a bushing rather than a bearing - so excuse my terminology - they are tube shaped, not round like ball bearings. However, I assure you they can crack, as the ones in my husbands rear derailleur have cracked.

It's a square tube then? Just kidding, it's still called a bearing.

BTW Cadillac built experimental silicon nitride exhaust valves for a Northstar V8 but... since they were much lighter than a stainless steel model the spring pressure could be lower, thus eliminating some of the stress (i.e. it didn't have to be as strong). As I recall they chose not to use them because the projected cost of manufacturing them, $5, was outside their "valve budget".

OK, ceramic bearings can crack, but not with the stresses in a jockey wheel, those are negligible.

Bushings in jockey wheels crack, I agree with that. To go with my KMC X10 chain which arrived today 😄 Iam eventually going to order KCNC Gold jockey wheels to match, and because they have ball bearings. These reduce drivetrain friction significantly. Most shimano jockeys have bushings, so I can see why it cracked.

From what I've been told its a ceramic bush in Ultegra. Low surface friction and durability make it feasible. How even a ceramic bearing (or any bearing) would have lower friction (to begin with), and those things turn pretty quickly at 30kph+! The loads are low so the wear and energy loss isn't much. Shimano also prefers the bush as they can design a little side to side play to allow the jockey to self align a bit better.

Ceramic would crack when hit with a hammer because it has low fracture toughness.

Metals can plastically deform before starting to "split" (for loss for a more appropriate term). So when hit with a hammer the material can deform and absorb the impact energy rather than "split".

The ceramic, just like your plates or flower pots, has chemical bonds which are either intact or not, so stretching or deforming permanently under load is not an option. When hit with a load that is large enough to break a few of these bonds, a crack forms creating a stress concentration and the crack normally propagates so quickly the object snaps or shatters.

Because of these chemical bonds ceramic has a much higher tensile strength than metal and stiffness, but once exceeded it’s all over quickly! Like carbon fiber the quality of production plays a large factor in the properties of the final part. A lot of voids after sintering produces internal stress concentrations that lead to lower strength and toughness in the part.

There is no way you could apply a load to a jockey (under normal use) that would cause even cheap ceramic bushes to crack. An unsealed steel bearing will squeak, an unsealed ceramic bearing would not, nor would a ceramic bush.

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