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"Divisive Issue"

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Mountain Bikes
Published
22 February 2007
Last activity
6 April 2007
Original author
Mike Vandeman
Posts
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  1. Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you truly believe this, why haven't you moved back to Olduvai
    Gorge?

    You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we
    change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to
    (successfully) us.

    That has nothing to do with what I asked you. If you believe that man
    in an exotic species everywhere but where he first appeared, then you
    should return to where you are not an exotic species.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
    extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
    and clovis pointed spears.

    They were: near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in
    its elbow, proving the point.

    That's one incident. Since the extinctions began long before man set
    foot on North America, real scientists do not agree on the degree to
    which over hunting caused the extinctions.

  2. Olebiker said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you truly believe this, why haven't you moved back to Olduvai
    Gorge?

    You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we
    change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to
    (successfully) us.

    That has nothing to do with what I asked you.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Learn to read. Do your homework.

    If you believe that man

    Quoted message said:

    in an exotic species everywhere but where he first appeared, then you
    should return to where you are not an exotic species.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
    extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
    and clovis pointed spears.

    They were: near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in
    its elbow, proving the point.

    That's one incident. Since the extinctions began long before man set
    foot on North America, real scientists do not agree on the degree to
    which over hunting caused the extinctions.

    It proves that human-caused extinction is possible.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  3. Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we
    change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to
    (successfully) us.

    Quoted message said:

    That has nothing to do with what I asked you.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Learn to read. Do your homework.

    Why are you not willing to defend your position, but insist on making
    personal attacks? Defend your position in this forum with scientific
    fact, not opinion.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They were: near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in
    its elbow, proving the point.

    Quoted message said:

    That's one incident. Since the extinctions began long before man set
    foot on North America, real scientists do not agree on the degree to
    which over hunting caused the extinctions.

    It proves that human-caused extinction is possible.

    One incident proves nothing.

  4. On Mar 1, 8:12 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    snip

    You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    PH

  5. pmh said:

    On Mar 1, 8:12 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    snip

    You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    I know. I'm kind of like Don Quixote that way. Mike and I go back at
    least ten years.

  6. Olebiker said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    > You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we
    > change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to
    > (successfully) us.

    Quoted message said:

    That has nothing to do with what I asked you.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Learn to read. Do your homework.

    Why are you not willing to defend your position, but insist on making
    personal attacks? Defend your position in this forum with scientific
    fact, not opinion.

    I did. You just refuse to READ it:
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. Idiot.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > They were: near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in
    > its elbow, proving the point.

    Quoted message said:

    That's one incident. Since the extinctions began long before man set
    foot on North America, real scientists do not agree on the degree to
    which over hunting caused the extinctions.

    It proves that human-caused extinction is possible.

    One incident proves nothing.

    BS. It proves that human-caused extinction is possible. Didn't you
    ever study mathematics? A single counter-example is enough to disprove
    a proposition.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  7. Olebiker said:
    pmh said:

    On Mar 1, 8:12 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    snip

    You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    I know. I'm kind of like Don Quixote that way. Mike and I go back at
    least ten years.

    Proving that you are incapable of learning anything.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    Quoted message said:

    I know. I'm kind of like Don Quixote that way. Mike and I go back at
    least ten years.

    Proving that you are incapable of learning anything.

    Mike, repeated personal attacks do nothing to support your arguments.
    Facts do. Now please provide facts, not opinion, to support your
    claims.

  9. Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why are you not willing to defend your position, but insist on making
    personal attacks? Defend your position in this forum with scientific
    fact, not opinion.

    I did. You just refuse to READ it:http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. Idiot.

    We are having a discussion on Usenet, not your homepage. If you have
    something on your homepage that defends your position and consists of
    fact, not opinion, please post it here. Pretend you are defending
    your dissertation and the readers here are the committee.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    One incident proves nothing.

    Quoted message said:

    BS. It proves that human-caused extinction is possible. Didn't you
    ever study mathematics? A single counter-example is enough to disprove
    a proposition.

    I did not claim that human-caused extinction is not possible and we're
    talking biology, not mathmatics.

  10. On Mar 1, 11:22 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Well, Mkey did say there were the remains of a single mammoth with a
    single with a single worked stone point. Absolute factual material
    leading one to postulate (claim?!) that mammoths knew how to work
    chert into weapons.

    PH

  11. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I am a trolling, cyclophobic, sociophobic idiot. It sucks to be me! Want
    to help?

    No

  12. On Mar 1, 11:22 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    snip

    Well, Mikey did point out remains of a single mammoth found with a
    single flaked point. Actual, factual material which might lead one to
    posutlate (claim!?) that mammoths knew how to work chert into weapons.

    PH

  13. "pmh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mar 1, 11:22 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    snip

    Well, Mikey did point out remains of a single mammoth found with a
    single flaked point. Actual, factual material which might lead one to
    posutlate (claim!?) that mammoths knew how to work chert into weapons.

    PH


    Did the point kill the mammoth, supporting Mikes claim, or did it simply
    wound the mammoth, allowing it to walk who knows how far, which would not
    necessarily support Mikes claim?

  14. Olebiker said:
    pmh said:

    On Mar 1, 8:12 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    I know. I'm kind of like Don Quixote that way. Mike and I go back at
    least ten years.

    Except it's all been done before, by people smarter than you.

    He's not here (usenet) to have a discussion, but to create noise.
    Every person who posts in reply to him is just feeding the post count
    and bumping his threads.

    When scientifically cornered, he'll abdicate every time with a "yawn"
    or "Did you say something?" proving that he wasn't in it for the
    principle, but for the sake of creating noise.

    I don't know *one single person* who doesn't immediately understand
    that his spew is 95% [censored]. Even the dumbest usenetter gets it pretty
    quick.

    E.P.

  15. R p j said:

    Did the point kill the mammoth, supporting Mikes claim, or did it simply
    wound the mammoth, allowing it to walk who knows how far, which would not
    necessarily support Mikes claim?

    Look, the mammoth is dead, the spear-tip is right there, and it's obvious a
    mountain biker killed it. This should all be very clear by now.

    -Beej

  16. R p j said:

    "pmh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    A lot of tongue-in-cheek, possibly known by most but not MV as irony.

    Actually, I should think it most unlikely the mammoth could be brought
    down by a single spear thrust. There must have been many, making it
    likely some points were broken off or lost their lashings within the
    body. Given the creature's size, it's not surprising that at least one
    point should be overlooked.

    PH

  17. Olebiker said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    > You are atempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

    Quoted message said:

    I know. I'm kind of like Don Quixote that way. Mike and I go back at
    least ten years.

    Proving that you are incapable of learning anything.

    Mike, repeated personal attacks do nothing to support your arguments.
    Facts do. Now please provide facts, not opinion, to support your
    claims.

    Quote something I said that's not factual. This should be good!
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. Olebiker said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why are you not willing to defend your position, but insist on making
    personal attacks? Defend your position in this forum with scientific
    fact, not opinion.

    I did. You just refuse to READ it:http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. Idiot.

    We are having a discussion on Usenet, not your homepage. If you have
    something on your homepage that defends your position and consists of
    fact, not opinion, please post it here. Pretend you are defending
    your dissertation and the readers here are the committee.

    Your inability to follow a simple link is duly noted.

    What Is [censored] Sapiens' Place in Nature,
    From an Objective (Biocentric) Point of View?
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 4, 2002

    "For hundreds of millenia, evolving humanity was a native species … in
    Africa and Asia. … The modern Races of [censored] sapiens were a true alien
    species when they colonized the rest of the world, from Australia to
    the New World and finally the distant oceanic islands." E.O. Wilson,
    p.98.

    "The behaviours animals use to avoid predators are both genetically
    based and learned. The genetic component is acquired through natural
    selection and so can only slowly be developed. This may account in
    part for the fact that most of the world's surviving large mammals
    live in Africa, for it was there that humanity evolved, and it was
    only there that animals had the time to acquire the genetically based
    behaviours that allowed them to cope with the new predator." Tim
    Flannery, p.198.

    "... his dominance and his faculties for upsetting so much of the rest
    of life serve to rule him out of what we think of as 'natural'
    relationships of living things". Paul Errington, p.41.

    Many answers have been given to this question, but none, to my
    knowledge, based on science. Even scientists, apparently, often avoid
    applying their knowledge when it may be inconvenient (e.g., interfere
    with our preferred lifestyle). For example, open any biology textbook
    and find where it defines "exotic species". Do you see any mention of
    the fact that humans are, throughout most of our range, an exotic
    species -- or even a discussion of whether we are an exotic species?
    If biology is so valuable (which I think it is), why do we shy away
    from using it?

    Another example: it is often claimed that humans are a natural
    part of our environment -- we are just an animal like any other
    animal. If that is true, then why aren't humans mentioned in the vast
    majority of natural histories? The fact is, we consider ourselves a
    part of our ecosystems when it's convenient (e.g. when we want to
    justify recreation in wildlife habitat), and not, when it's not
    convenient (e.g. when choosing where to live: in a house!). When you
    die, will you re-enter the ecosystem just like any other dead
    organism? No! We are either cremated, or buried in a box, specifically
    to avoid the natural process of decay.

    It is obvious that we are a part of nature, or we couldn't
    touch and interact with it. The real question is Which part of nature
    are we?

    Biology texts usually define an "exotic species" as one
    transported by humans to a new location, where it hadn't existed
    before. However, this is not a good definition, since the effect of
    the exotic species on its new surroundings has nothing to do with how
    it got there, but more to do with the fact that it is a newcomer.
    However, every species was new at some time in the past. So the
    question is, How long does it take to become a native species?

    I would like to suggest that a length of time that makes
    sense, biologically, is the time that it takes for the other species
    in the ecosystem to evolve (i.e., make persistent -- "beneficial" --
    genetic changes) to adapt to the newcomer -- say on the order of a
    million years. This would make humans ([censored] sapiens) native only to
    (part of) Africa, and everywhere else, a relative newcomer -- an
    exotic species. (This is not a value judgment, but simply a statement
    of biological fact.)

    Does this mean that we should all move back to Africa? I don't
    think so -- it wouldn't help! Even in Africa, our behavior changes so
    rapidly, on an evolutionary scale, that the only things that can
    evolve fast enough to keep up with us are bacteria and viruses! So
    even in Africa, we might as well consider ourselves an exotic species.

    But what I do think it means is that we should act with
    restraint -- with the manners of a guest! What does this mean in
    practice? I think it means, first of all, to "listen" to other
    species, and what they are trying to tell us! For example, what is the
    first thing that every child learns about wildlife? That they don't
    want us around: that they run away whenever we try to approach them!
    And then, of course, because we are the curious animals that we are,
    we proceed to ignore their wishes.

    Jane Goodall, Dian Fossey, and Birute Galdikas all had the
    same experience when they began trying to study apes in the wild: the
    apes didn't want them around! They "told" the researchers that clearly
    and unequivocally. Jane couldn't get close to the chimpanzees until
    she started bribing them with bananas. The gorillas charged Dian and
    tried to scare her away. And the orangutans pushed over trees toward
    Birute, apparently trying to kill or intimidate her. The apes
    desperately need us to deliver their message to the rest of humanity.
    Although the message is impossible to miss, most humans ignore it.
    Rather than arguing over to what degree the apes resemble or differ
    from humans, the most important message that we can derive from
    studying them is that they want to be left alone!

    This is perhaps a bitter pill, but one that humanity urgently
    needs to take. With our population increasing rapidly, it is more
    important than ever to give wildlife what they want, which is also,
    therefore, what they need: freedom from the pressure, irritation,
    infection with diseases, and outright danger of the presence of
    humans. It is utterly inexcusable that we continue extending our
    hegemony into every square inch of the Earth -- and soon, other
    defenseless planets as well.

    This is a tall order? Very well, then it is a tall order. But
    I do not see why we shouldn't aim for what is needed, instead of
    pretending that less is adequate.

    References:

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State
    University Press, 1987.

    Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An Ecological History of North
    America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove Press, 2001.

    Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony Books,
    1991.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, 1995.

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
    for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
    1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J., http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ecocity3,http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3,
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8, and
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/goodall.

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    "The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The Cenozoic
    Society, 1994.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New York: Alfred A. Knopf,
    2002.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  19. On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:35:17 GMT, "R p j" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "pmh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mar 1, 11:22 am, "Olebiker" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    snip

    Well, Mikey did point out remains of a single mammoth found with a
    single flaked point. Actual, factual material which might lead one to
    posutlate (claim!?) that mammoths knew how to work chert into weapons.

    PH


    Did the point kill the mammoth, supporting Mikes claim, or did it simply
    wound the mammoth, allowing it to walk who knows how far, which would not
    necessarily support Mikes claim?

    Peole wouldn't have tried to kill mammoths, if they knew they couldn't
    do it. DUH!
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  20. "Beej Jorgensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    R p j said:

    Did the point kill the mammoth, supporting Mikes claim, or did it simply
    wound the mammoth, allowing it to walk who knows how far, which would not
    necessarily support Mikes claim?

    Look, the mammoth is dead, the spear-tip is right there, and it's obvious
    a
    mountain biker killed it. This should all be very clear by now.

    -Beej


    Damn, sorry. Totally missed the MB connection. Do you think he threw the
    spear while standing (as a hiker) or while riding?

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