Dientz admits doping

Bro Deal said:

I am just saying that there is no surprise here. [censored] Voet revealed the situation a decade ago.

In order for it to grow be a big deal, you need ex-pros who served on multiple teams to implicate teams other than T-Mobile. They need to name the doctors and team staff who participated. If it stays confined to Germany then there will still be people who will dismiss it. Just wait for musette to make an appearance.

Fair point, however I think a lot of us (I know I was anyway) were hoping that someone involved in OP was going to break open the omerta and save cycling. I just don't think it is going to happen that way.

From small things big things grow.

And with that there is hope.

I have to say there never has been any organized team doping by any team. What we have is Pro Cycling organized doping. The teams did not have to get involved, it was already in place for them. They could just look the other way. Sponsors too.......
Every team knows exactly what is going on in their world. They know of every doctor, rider, and type of dope that is working to provide results.
These are smart people. Most of them came up in cycling and know the rules. For them not to know is beyond belief.......

wicklow200 said:

OK but T Mobile was supposed to be one of the cleanest teams out there. How many times was it pointed out that rider X's level fell with T Mobile and went through the roof again after joing a different team. T Mobile seemed to be the benchmark.

I always thought the criticism of T-Mob for that was a little bogus. Savoldelli and Evans were injured or sick most of their time with the team. Julich was [censored] before he got to T-Mob. Botero is a fair example.

We don't yet know what was happening at the team during the last five or six years. The general theory is that after 1998 the threat of criminal prosecution put an end to team doping at most teams--or at least most non-Spanish teams. Ullrich and Sevilla were using doping services outside the team, so at some point T-Mobile's team doping changed.

It will be interesting to hear more details about T-Mobile and how their program changed over the years. That will give us insight about other teams operate.

@limerickman

Tomorrow there will be a press conference at t-mobile´s headquarters at Bonn during which Rolf Aldag will publicly admit to doping. Stapleton in an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Munich, said this afternoon that they won´t fire Rolf because of those "moments of weakness". Aldag himself stated that he had been contemplating his coming-out for a couple of weeks before Dietz´s appearance on TV, honi soi qui mal y pense...

Here are some highlights of Henn's confession and Gerolsteiner's comments afterward. I think the Gerolsteiner reaction is possibly a hopefull way forward. They could fire him, or they could, after deternining he is genuinely reformed, allow him to keep his job, and not punish him for comming forward. Maybe this kind of attitude would convince more to come forward and confess.

Henn's remarks:
'When asked if team manager Walter Godefroot gathered money from the riders for doping products, he merely answered, "Oh, nonsense." He also indicated that former soigneur Jef d'Hondt was "the key figure" in the scheme.

After retiring in disgrace, Henn said, he had pretty much given up on cycling. "At least then it was totally clear to me: If I do get another chance in cycling, then clearly without doping."

And what will he now say to his Gerolsteiner riders? "I will say, that's how it was at the time. Do it or else. But this system doesn't exist any more. Maybe it sounds silly, but I believe, despite Operación Puerto, that cycling is pretty clean now."

He is aware that sponsor Gerolsteiner could now kick him out because of his confession. "That's possible." And what would he then do? "No idea."'

Gerolsteiner response:
"Despite the admission, Gerolsteiner team manger Hans-Michael Holczer said Henn would not lose his job with the team. "There are two possibilities: I can either keep Christian Henn on, or I can suspend or fire him," Holczer told netzeitung.de. "The latter would support the 'cartel of silence', as they say, and that is something that we don't want. We stand for a new era in cycling, for a new basis, and Christian Henn has done outstanding work towards that in the last years. I assume that he will stay with us."

Gerolsteiner's sponsorship contract runs through the 2008 season, but according to the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the firm is already considering either ending the contract early or not extending it, because of the ongoing doping problems associated with cycling."

portia said:

@limerickman

Tomorrow there will be a press conference at t-mobile´s headquarters at Bonn during which Rolf Aldag will publicly admit to doping. Stapleton in an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Munich, said this afternoon that they won´t fire Rolf because of those "moments of weakness". Aldag himself stated that he had been contemplating his coming-out for a couple of weeks before Dietz´s appearance on TV, honi soi qui mal y pense...

But didn't he deny any knowledge of doping at the team? Why one standard for riders and another for team management / former riders?

portia said:

@limerickman

Tomorrow there will be a press conference at t-mobile´s headquarters at Bonn during which Rolf Aldag will publicly admit to doping. Stapleton in an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Munich, said this afternoon that they won´t fire Rolf because of those "moments of weakness". Aldag himself stated that he had been contemplating his coming-out for a couple of weeks before Dietz´s appearance on TV, honi soi qui mal y pense...

Seems odd for them to pre-announce a confession, but oh well.

Since Aldag raced through '05 (?) it will be very interesting to see what he has to say about the 2000-2005 time period (if he actually goes into that much detail).

You'll never see or hear a star rider admit to doping because their livelihood depends on their results. But domestiques? Is someone going to sue them? Make them give prize money back? I think they'll start coming forward.

Big news? Only in that it might signal the house of cards is tumbling.

Shocking? Nope.

But then again, based on the average speeds from tours past we know that doping never happened, right? Or, if they were using dope, it didn't help them go faster.

Roll out that asinine graph.

Where is it?

Of course. It's right next to the one proving the world is flat.

Agreed. This is why I think if Landis CSI gets off his charge a lot of former USPS and PHONAK riders will come forward and admit to doping..... soon we will have a confession from every rider since 1995 bar Landis and Armstrong...the only two riders in the last 15 years not to dope..... oh and Hamilton....

helmutRoole2 said:

You'll never see or hear a star rider admit to doping because their livelihood depends on their results. But domestiques? Is someone going to sue them? Make them give prize money back? I think they'll start coming forward.

Big news? Only in that it might signal the house of cards is tumbling.

Shocking? Nope.

But then again, based on the average speeds from tours past we know that doping never happened, right? Or, if they were using dope, it didn't help them go faster.

Roll out that asinine graph.

Where is it?

Of course. It's right next to the one proving the world is flat.

helmutRoole2 said:

You'll never see or hear a star rider admit to doping because their livelihood depends on their results. But domestiques? Is someone going to sue them? Make them give prize money back? I think they'll start coming forward.

Big news? Only in that it might signal the house of cards is tumbling.

Shocking? Nope.

But then again, based on the average speeds from tours past we know that doping never happened, right? Or, if they were using dope, it didn't help them go faster.

Roll out that asinine graph.

Where is it?

Of course. It's right next to the one proving the world is flat.

I say this without malice. Just read my original post and you'll see I stated at the end that I wasn't trying to make a claim as to whether the speeds indicated doping or not. I was trying to objectively look at the data and analyze it from a purely statistical point of view i.e remove the emotions and look at the data from a scientific point of view. I see a steady trend of increasing speed since 1973 onwards. I do not see an "EPO spike" or anything suspicious anywhere in the 90s. It is likely that some form of doping has in some part small or large been a contributing factor to the upward trend. I can also make the same claim for refinements in equipment, wind conditions on the Western side of France for that particular year, the number of mountain top finishes, etc.

I do however object to the idea that with all of these variables and the evidence of the graph itself, plus the fact that Lim's data was wrong and he never even grpahed the inaccurate data he had, that there is some spike in the data in the 90s that can be pointed to that indicates the explicite us of EPO. That doesn't mean that EPO wasn't or isn't around and in use then and now.

whiteboytrash said:

Agreed. This is why I think if Landis CSI gets off his charge a lot of former USPS and PHONAK riders will come forward and admit to doping..... soon we will have a confession from every rider since 1995 bar Landis and Armstrong...the only two riders in the last 15 years not to dope..... oh and Hamilton....

I just don't see that happening. Why do you think that Landis being found not guilty would bring out his ex-teammates? I think it would just show that you can beat the rap and enfore the omerta.

davidbod said:

I say this without malice. Just read my original post and you'll see I stated at the end that I wasn't trying to make a claim as to whether the speeds indicated doping or not. I was trying to objectively look at the data and analyze it from a purely statistical point of view i.e remove the emotions and look at the data from a scientific point of view. I see a steady trend of increasing speed since 1973 onwards. I do not see an "EPO spike" or anything suspicious anywhere in the 90s. It is likely that some form of doping has in some part small or large been a contributing factor to the upward trend. I can also make the same claim for refinements in equipment, wind conditions on the Western side of France for that particular year, the number of mountain top finishes, etc.

I do however object to the idea that with all of these variables and the evidence of the graph itself, plus the fact that Lim's data was wrong and he never even grpahed the inaccurate data he had, that there is some spike in the data in the 90s that can be pointed to that indicates the explicite us of EPO. That doesn't mean that EPO wasn't or isn't around and in use then and now.

I know, but average speed is a terrible indicator. How often do they all finish together? Wattage on climbs and tt is the best indicator and can be derived pre-power tap through mathematics. And that graph, which is floating around here somewhere, does show spikes relative to EPO introduction and the tests for it.

Look, I'm not going argue minutia. We know pro riders started taking EPO in the early 90s. We know EPO leads to an increase in performance. Why even brother presenting evidence to the contrary?

That's why people are so fired up.

helmutRoole2 said:

Look, I'm not going argue minutia. We know pro riders started taking EPO in the early 90s. We know EPO leads to an increase in performance. Why even brother presenting evidence to the contrary?

That sort of thing is in fashion these days. Landis is arguing that testosterone is not a PED so it does not make sense for him to use it.

portia said:

@limerickman

Tomorrow there will be a press conference at t-mobile´s headquarters at Bonn during which Rolf Aldag will publicly admit to doping. Stapleton in an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Munich, said this afternoon that they won´t fire Rolf because of those "moments of weakness". Aldag himself stated that he had been contemplating his coming-out for a couple of weeks before Dietz´s appearance on TV, honi soi qui mal y pense...

Thanks Portia.

I'm not sure thanks is the correct word to be honest.
Looks like a total mess.

What is galling is that Aldag was virulent in his comments about doping when the riders were barred at the start of the 2006 TDF.
He's been made to look like a fool - and a liar.

helmutRoole2 said:

I know, but average speed is a terrible indicator. How often do they all finish together? Wattage on climbs and tt is the best indicator and can be derived pre-power tap through mathematics. And that graph, which is floating around here somewhere, does show spikes relative to EPO introduction and the tests for it.

Look, I'm not going argue minutia. We know pro riders started taking EPO in the early 90s. We know EPO leads to an increase in performance. Why even brother presenting evidence to the contrary?

That's why people are so fired up.

Something like that ?
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or

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from cyclismag.comarticle.phpOpen ↗

limerickman said:

Thanks Portia.

I'm not sure thanks is the correct word to be honest.
Looks like a total mess.

What is galling is that Aldag was virulent in his comments about doping when the riders were barred at the start of the 2006 TDF.
He's been made to look like a fool - and a liar.

Agreed Lim. Aldag made comments about Ullrich and closed doors in hotel rooms insinuating doping..... why does cycling and doping bring out the worst in peoples characters ?

earth_dweller said:

I just don't see that happening. Why do you think that Landis being found not guilty would bring out his ex-teammates? I think it would just show that you can beat the rap and enfore the omerta.

Because a lot of people will be disgusted at the entire game.... I remember as a young WBT that my friends and I ran from school and stole candy from a local store... someone saw us and we got busted by the teachers bar one.... he didn't turn himself in.... we did detention and he didn't..... after a period of time we couldn't cope with his omerta and dobbed him in.... in the end his did more time than we did for his local of character..... Landis will fry one way or the other.....

davidbod said:

Here are some highlights of Henn's confession and Gerolsteiner's comments afterward. I think the Gerolsteiner reaction is possibly a hopefull way forward. They could fire him, or they could, after deternining he is genuinely reformed, allow him to keep his job, and not punish him for comming forward. Maybe this kind of attitude would convince more to come forward and confess.

Word.

portia said:

@limerickman

Tomorrow there will be a press conference at t-mobile´s headquarters at Bonn during which Rolf Aldag will publicly admit to doping. Stapleton in an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Munich, said this afternoon that they won´t fire Rolf because of those "moments of weakness". Aldag himself stated that he had been contemplating his coming-out for a couple of weeks before Dietz´s appearance on TV, honi soi qui mal y pense...

Holy [censored]! He is going to confess.

I wonder how old Riis intends to handle this. He now has the most at stake with Ullrich already being taken down.

Edit: I just had another thought - there is no point stripping these guys of their TdF titles as the rest of the top 10+ were no doubt doped up as well.

Edit 2: If Aldag was really cleaning out house and ensuring the team was 100% squeaky clean, why the hell didn't he clear out the old doctors when he would of known of there doping past? To keep them quiet? Oh, its a tangled web.

whiteboytrash said:

Because a lot of people will be disgusted at the entire game.... I remember as a young WBT that my friends and I ran from school and stole candy from a local store... someone saw us and we got busted by the teachers bar one.... he didn't turn himself in.... we did detention and he didn't..... after a period of time we couldn't cope with his omerta and dobbed him in.... in the end his did more time than we did for his local of character..... Landis will fry one way or the other.....

So you are basing what you think an adult will do based on the reaction of a bunch of little kids?!?!?!?!