Detente

"Wayne Pein" wrote

Quoted message said:

"Constitutional" is apparently not relavent. There exists bike bans on
normal roads. Fort Collins CO, a "bicycle friendly" community comes to
mind.

Which roads in Fort Collins have bike bans? Why?
Bicycle Colorado (www.bicyclecolorado.org) got the bike ban on the Central
City Parkway lifted (there is now a "Share The Road" sign at the start of
the parkway), they might be able to help in Ft. Collins.
--
mark

mark said:

"Wayne Pein" wrote

Quoted message said:

"Constitutional" is apparently not relavent. There exists bike bans on
normal roads. Fort Collins CO, a "bicycle friendly" community comes to
mind.

Which roads in Fort Collins have bike bans? Why?
Bicycle Colorado (www.bicyclecolorado.org) got the bike ban on the Central
City Parkway lifted (there is now a "Share The Road" sign at the start of
the parkway), they might be able to help in Ft. Collins.

College Ave. Why? For bicyclists own good, of course. Or, make up any
reason you like. Those that enacted the ban seemingly did.

http://www.labreform.org/BFC.html
has more information.

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

Quoted message said:

Which roads in Fort Collins have bike bans? Why?
Bicycle Colorado (www.bicyclecolorado.org) got the bike ban on the Central
City Parkway lifted (there is now a "Share The Road" sign at the start of
the parkway), they might be able to help in Ft. Collins.

College Ave. Why? For bicyclists own good, of course. Or, make up any
reason you like. Those that enacted the ban seemingly did.

http://www.labreform.org/BFC.html
has more information.

Oh jeez. I know College Av. Only a hopeless ideologue
would feel any sense of loss over College Av. Fort
Collins is the easiest town to ride a bike around that
I know, including Amsterdam.

Robert

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

Quoted message said:

Which roads in Fort Collins have bike bans? Why?
Bicycle Colorado (www.bicyclecolorado.org) got the bike ban on the Central
City Parkway lifted (there is now a "Share The Road" sign at the start of
the parkway), they might be able to help in Ft. Collins.

College Ave. Why? For bicyclists own good, of course. Or, make up any
reason you like. Those that enacted the ban seemingly did.

http://www.labreform.org/BFC.html
has more information.

Oh jeez. I know College Av. Only a hopeless ideologue
would feel any sense of loss over College Av. Fort
Collins is the easiest town to ride a bike around that
I know, including Amsterdam.

Robert

Yet, bicyclists cannot ride on College Ave.?

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

Yet, bicyclists cannot ride on College Ave.?

It wouldn't be advisable or particularly useful
to ride College Avenue. It's not as if the
businesses along the main drag are unreachable
by bike.

Fort Collins is astonishingly easy to
navigate on a bicycle.

Robert

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

Yet, bicyclists cannot ride on College Ave.?

It wouldn't be advisable or particularly useful
to ride College Avenue. It's not as if the
businesses along the main drag are unreachable
by bike.

??

So if you rode, via back streets, to one business on College Ave, and
then you wanted to get to another business 1.5 blocks away, you
wouldn't find it useful to just ride there?

What is it about College Ave. that justifies banning bikes?

On Google Earth it looks like a multi-lane urban arterial, the kind of
road where motorists can usually shift lanes easily to pass a cyclist.
Why not let people ride it?

Quoted message said:

Fort Collins is astonishingly easy to
navigate on a bicycle.

Maybe so - but that in itself doesn't justify a bike ban. What gives?

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be advisable or particularly useful
to ride College Avenue. It's not as if the
businesses along the main drag are unreachable
by bike.

??

So if you rode, via back streets, to one business on College Ave, and
then you wanted to get to another business 1.5 blocks away, you
wouldn't find it useful to just ride there?

I would just ride the sidewalk, even if College wasn't
off-lmits. I have had occasion to make that choice multiple
times. There are about 0.2 pedestrians per mile. Much,
much easier.

Quoted message said:

What is it about College Ave. that justifies banning bikes?

Traffic volume combined with speed combined with very
narrow lanes means that any cyclist riding College will
by default be 'taking a lane'. Normally this would be
ok as you say, but College generally has so much volume
that passing by changing lanes is very difficult if not
impossible--you can't move into the next lane over
because that lane is packed with cars. So you very
quickly have a situation where any single cyclist is
blocking like 80 cars and performing his own personal
critical mass. The fact that there are riders there
in the Fort and elsewhere who think this is a
good way to ride is the reason it had to be made
illegal, I suspect, just for one particular stretch.

Quoted message said:

On Google Earth it looks like a multi-lane urban arterial, the kind of
road where motorists can usually shift lanes easily to pass a cyclist.
Why not let people ride it?

College isnt like that. It's packed much of the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fort Collins is astonishingly easy to
navigate on a bicycle.

Maybe so - but that in itself doesn't justify a bike ban. What gives?

So here's Fort Collins, with every damn street in town
(except one) laid out for cyclists, with the widest outside
lanes in the known universe, and implementing the whole
wish list that you gave in your other post. Then along
come you guys who have never been there and criticize
them for banning cyclists from ONE street that nobody
from Fort Collins in their right mind would choose to
ride anyway. Want to make sure I've got that straight.

R

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be advisable or particularly useful
to ride College Avenue. It's not as if the
businesses along the main drag are unreachable
by bike.

Fort Collins is astonishingly easy to
navigate on a bicycle.

Agreed. I lived there for several years. I didn't know bikes weren't
allowed on College, but never had a desire to ride there anyway. Very
very busy road; much of it has frontage roads on both sides, the rest
has much better streets a block on either side.

Rich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is it about College Ave. that justifies banning bikes?

Traffic volume combined with speed combined with very
narrow lanes means that any cyclist riding College will
by default be 'taking a lane'. Normally this would be
ok as you say, but College generally has so much volume
that passing by changing lanes is very difficult if not
impossible--you can't move into the next lane over
because that lane is packed with cars. So you very
quickly have a situation where any single cyclist is
blocking like 80 cars and performing his own personal
critical mass.

So, College is a freeway with no cross traffic and no traffic signals?
It flows freely at high speed and motorists don't have to come to a
complete stop ever?

The fact that there are riders there

Quoted message said:

in the Fort and elsewhere who think this is a
good way to ride is the reason it had to be made
illegal, I suspect, just for one particular stretch.

Damn those vehicular cyclists that purposefully ride on allegedly
horrible roads for the sole purpose of blocking motorists!

Quoted message said:

So here's Fort Collins, with every damn street in town
(except one) laid out for cyclists, with the widest outside
lanes in the known universe,

Is there evidence that these roads were indeed laid out and wide "for"
cyclists or do they just happen to be that way a la Salt Lake City which
was designed to enable U turns by oxen trains?

and implementing the whole

Quoted message said:

wish list that you gave in your other post. Then along
come you guys who have never been there and criticize
them for banning cyclists from ONE street that nobody
from Fort Collins in their right mind would choose to
ride anyway. Want to make sure I've got that straight.

The point is not whether Ft Collins is nice to ride around. It may be.
Sorry though for not feeling warm and fuzzy about all the bike lanes
there that likely were striped on preexisting wide lanes. The point is
that some bicyclists there apparently disagree with the ban. It is
probable that the powers that be feel justified in banning bicyclists
because they are so wonderful to them elsewhere, having graciously given
them paths and bike lanes.

Wayne

"mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Andy Gee" wrote

Quoted message said:

Bikes are grandfathered in, I don't think it would be constitutional
to ban
a bike from a non-interstate or non-park authority-owned parkway.

However, we do have a rule that says if there's a bike lane, you have
to ride in it where safety allows. That is, if the bike lane is on
the left, you can't ride on the right. That's where the busses go.

--ag

Where in the US does this rule exist? Here in Colorado there is no
such rule, I frequently ride in the roadway right next to the bike
path or bike lane.

NYC code. Mainly applies to Hudson Street, 6th Ave, pieces of 1st & 2nd
Aves and Broadway. The bike lanes are on the left, and the official
requiremnet is to stay in them if safe.

--ag

Wayne Pein said:

The point is not whether Ft Collins is nice to ride around. It may be.
Sorry though for not feeling warm and fuzzy about all the bike lanes
there that likely were striped on preexisting wide lanes. The point is
that some bicyclists there apparently disagree with the ban. It is
probable that the powers that be feel justified in banning bicyclists
because they are so wonderful to them elsewhere, having graciously given
them paths and bike lanes.

Wayne

You're ignorance is showing. I recommend you go to Fort Collins and see
what it's actually like before going on about how wrong it is.

Rich

Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Andy Gee wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, we do have a rule that says if there's a bike lane, you have
to ride in it where safety allows. That is, if the bike lane is on
the left, you can't ride on the right. That's where the busses go.

One has to question the "friendliness" of something that is
compulsory.

Well, I should also say that most of the Avenues in Manhattan have
designated bus lanes on the right. Cars can't travel in them. I don't
know for a certainty if a bike on an avenue without a bike lane but with a
bus lane is allowed to ride actually in the bus lane. I've never been or
seen anyone ticketed or stopped for it, but it can be suicidal. I think
the important point is that the _road_ is bike-friendly and that all
traffic is subject to _lane_ restrictions.

--ag

"mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I lived in Oakland, CA and commuted by bicycle to Alameda the
downtown Oakland traffic lights were timed for about 20 mph. A strong
cyclist could keep up with the lights pretty easily, which was a lot
of fun.

Cities in Germany time the traffic lights, vary the timing depending
on traffic, and use electric signs to tell motorists what speed the
lights are timed for.

This is very enlightened. Transportation Alternatives and other groups
have been trying to have the lights re-timed forever. Mathematically, it
works out better for the bikes _and_ the cars. Just think of it as getting
grain out of an elevator and it will make sense.

--ag

Wayne Pein said:

One has to question the "friendliness" of something that is compulsory.

Wayne

I have to ask--what does that mean?

Essentially there is an element of compulsion in all laws, rules, and
regulations. Are speed limits intrinsically unfriendly? Are rules
against carrying firearms into a bank unfriendly?

So is it only rules that regulate how YOU want to ride your bike that
are unfriendly.

After all the whole idea of the social contract is setting limits on
individual action so as to maximize the overall benefit. There is
little argument on the point- the arguments are about where thse limits
are drawn.

[email hidden] wrote in news:1129088072.765262.139630
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Andy Gee said:

I live in Stuyvesant Town in Manhattan (A Park Runs Through It [TM]),
the home of Euro-style traffic calming. Technically, though, biking is
forbidden in Stuy Town. Except, you know, for ST maintenance folks, ST
security, pizza delivery, kids, you get the picture.

?? Honestly, I know nothing about Stuyvesant Town. It sounds unusual
and interesting - but the anti-bike thing sounds weird. I guess I
should do some googling.

It's one of new York's experiments in Bauhaus "worker" housing. We
actually live in apartment blocks inside a big park, with big lawns, play
and sports areas, concert facilities, community stuff. It was built by Met
Life in 1947 for returning WW2 vets. I don't know why there's an official
bike ban, but I think it's a private insurance thing. The paths are not
city streets or sidewalks, so they can ban anything.

--ag

Wayne Pein said:

The point is not whether Ft Collins is nice to ride around. It may be.

It's not particularly nice, imo. But it is the easiest place to
get around by bike that I have ever been.

Quoted message said:

Sorry though for not feeling warm and fuzzy about all the bike lanes
there that likely were striped on preexisting wide lanes.

I don't give two [censored] about the lane striping. It's the
luxuriously wide outside lanes on every street that make it
so easy. That and the two diagonally oriented fully-separated
MUPs.

Quoted message said:

The point is
that some bicyclists there apparently disagree with the ban.

More likely, they disagree with the idea of the ban. They are
ideologically opposed to it, and Reality be damned. Hell, you're
opposed to it, and you've never even been there.

I'll say it again. Nobody feels a need to ride College Avenue.
Only an inferior mind would conclude that he's disadvantaged
by not being able to ride College Avenue. If there are people
at Labreform who are [censored] and moaning about the bike ban
on one section of College Avenue, that just shows how ridiculous
Labreform is.

Robert

Rich said:

Wayne Pein said:

The point is not whether Ft Collins is nice to ride around. It may be.
Sorry though for not feeling warm and fuzzy about all the bike lanes
there that likely were striped on preexisting wide lanes. The point is
that some bicyclists there apparently disagree with the ban. It is
probable that the powers that be feel justified in banning bicyclists
because they are so wonderful to them elsewhere, having graciously
given them paths and bike lanes.

Wayne

You're ignorance is showing. I recommend you go to Fort Collins and see
what it's actually like before going on about how wrong it is.

Rich

Rich,

Please specify where my ignorance lies. I defer to your wisdom. Am I
wrong in my assessment of the bike lanes? Do tell!

thanks,
Wayne

Andy Gee said:

Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

One has to question the "friendliness" of something that is
compulsory.

Well, I should also say that most of the Avenues in Manhattan have
designated bus lanes on the right. Cars can't travel in them. I don't
know for a certainty if a bike on an avenue without a bike lane but with a
bus lane is allowed to ride actually in the bus lane. I've never been or
seen anyone ticketed or stopped for it, but it can be suicidal. I think
the important point is that the _road_ is bike-friendly and that all
traffic is subject to _lane_ restrictions.

--ag

Having a clear lane when all traffic is otherwised seized would be an
advantage. But again, mandating bike lane use is not to the benefit of
bicyclists. Car and truck drivers get to choose their lane based on
there destination. There are bus only lanes to the right because that is
where passengers disembark.

Wayne

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

Sorry though for not feeling warm and fuzzy about all the bike lanes
there that likely were striped on preexisting wide lanes.

I don't give two [censored] about the lane striping. It's the
luxuriously wide outside lanes on every street that make it
so easy. That and the two diagonally oriented fully-separated
MUPs.

So the ubiquitous bike lane streets ASLO have wide outside lanes? I find
that hard to believe. Or, have you not been there in a while and all the
wide lanes have been striped with bike lanes?

Wayne

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

One has to question the "friendliness" of something that is compulsory.

Wayne

I have to ask--what does that mean?

Essentially there is an element of compulsion in all laws, rules, and
regulations. Are speed limits intrinsically unfriendly? Are rules
against carrying firearms into a bank unfriendly?

No, but if only bicyclists had to obey the speed limit or the firearm
ban they would be.

Wayne