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D'oh :(

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UK and Europe
Published
27 June 2007
Last activity
1 July 2007
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Christopher Harrison
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  1. Martin Dann said:
    Christopher Harrison said:
    Quoted message said:

    From your description, it seems you were cycling on the pavement
    /against/ the traffic flow. Tres dangereuse, IMHO, and extra care
    should have been taken.

    Quoted message said:

    Agreed ... although I've done this every day for the past year-or-two
    and I honestly thought he had seen me. Usually, if I'm in any kind of
    doubt, I go behind them and ride through the garage forecourt
    (carefully -- because it's full of cars and slippery!).

    From you original post, I read that the car was coming
    out of a private garage, not a petrol garage as per this post.

    IMHO the entrances and exits of petrol garages are quite
    dangerous, many drivers treat them as road. Even as a
    pedestrian you have to be careful.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nevertheless, wishes for a speedy recovery from this corner.

    Ditto

    Quoted message said:

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to try to find some
    comfort food that I can eat without chewing or using my jaw too much.)

    Chocolate. (It's good for the immune system).

    Whilst you were obviously in the wrong for cycling on the pavement, it
    seems that now you describe it more fully, the driver would have run
    into you irrespective of the mode of transport (pram, foot, skateboard
    etc.) which would make the collision his fault.

    Are you a CTC member (or LCC or BC?) They have good legal services
    which would help in this situation.

    ...d

    (Oh, and ditto the chocolate)

  2. Tony Raven said:

    Daniel Barlow wrote on 27/06/2007 14:33 +0100:

    Quoted message said:
    David Martin said:

    And yes, you will be liable. You were acting illegally. Why should the
    car driver be inconvenienced by your illegal actions?

    Quoted message said:

    Well, without knowing more of the facts it's hard to say. Perhaps he
    was cycling at walking pace - if he'd been walking the bike, would the
    car driver have hit him anyway? Dent in bonnet (as opposed to front
    wing) suggests that may be a possibility.

    Quoted message said:

    "The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    the traffic, and who show consideration to other pavement users when
    doing so [...]" - Paul Boateng, the Home Office minister responsible for
    introduction of pavement cycling spot fines

    Quoted message said:

    Get well soon, anyway.

    Doesn't mean he was not breaking the law nor that he is liable for the
    consequences of breaking the law and recompensing the losses of an
    innocent third party.


    Just because he was breaking the law doesn't absolve others of the
    need to take due care.

    If it actually goes to insurance companies it will probably be deemed
    partially the fault of each. I've no idea how that would be
    apportioned although I'm inclined to think it will be deemed more the
    cyclists fault.

    In view of the fact that that is likely to affect the drivers NCB the
    most likely final outcome is that neither ends up claiming from the
    other.

    Tim.

  3. Rob Morley said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Eilbeck
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Wouldn't the driver also be acting illegally if he/she was
    (presumably) reversing onto a main road?


    ITYF it's a "should not", not a "must not". You're not allowed to
    reverse from a side road into a main road, but a private access isn't a
    road.

    that i suspect has some give in it i live in a rather narrow cul-de-sac
    which means that cars for most part can't turn. thus tend to reverse out
    unless they reversed in.

    roger

  4. Tom Crispin said:

    On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:44:26 +0100, Rob Morley <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    Christopher Harrison
    [email hidden] says...
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    As I was on the pavement -- even though I was in full view and wearing
    bright clothes -- it is apparently my fault. (Unless the witnesses can
    prove otherwise.)

    WTF!?


    No sympathy here - what if it had been a small child or little old lady
    instead of a car?

    Why would a small child or little old lady be pulling out of a garage
    onto the main road?

    they probably wouldn't but they might well unexpectedly go onto the
    pavment.

    roger

  5. in message <[email hidden]>,

    Christopher Harrison (') said:

    As I was on the pavement -- even though I was in full view and wearing
    bright clothes -- it is apparently my fault. (Unless the witnesses can
    prove otherwise.)

    WTF!?

    Sorry, that's the law. You MUST NOT cycle on the pavement.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
    ; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
    ; www-html. -- George Lund

  6. Christopher Harrison said:

    Cycling to work this morning and, less than 1/4 mile from home, I was
    hit by a car pulling out of a garage...

    Did you run into the side of the car or did he drive into the side of
    you while you were in front of him?

    Either way it will be your fault - A car drove into the side of me and
    my bike apparently that was my fault. I was on the main road and he
    was turning right out of a garage...

    pete

  7. [email hidden] wrote on 27/06/2007 18:15 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    In view of the fact that that is likely to affect the drivers NCB the
    most likely final outcome is that neither ends up claiming from the
    other.

    True but the burden of proof is on the OP and it will be a hard one to
    win if for nothing more than no witnesses and the claim that as a
    cyclist he was going faster than would be expected of pavement users.
    But feel free to have a try and prove me wrong.

    --
    Tony

    "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
    is no good evidence either way."
    - Bertrand Russell

  8. I have to say that I don't know what I find more amazing - the fact that you
    came here expecting sympathy or the fact that you got some. You were out of
    order, you were to blame, you got hurt. [censored] happens. If you do this kind of
    thing, you surely do it in the full awareness that if anything happens to
    you, you've got noone to blame but yourself. And yes, you should pay for any
    repairs to his car. Bloody right. Why should he? As for 'contact the CTC'
    and the like...well do by all means. But I suspect they'll give you pretty
    short shrift. You were cycling on a footpath at sufficient speed to chip a
    tooth, knacker your jaw, scar your chin and put your wrist in a sling when
    you came off. Get real. Get well soon, but get real.
    "Christopher Harrison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Chocolate. (It's good for the immune system).

    Can be taken in liquid form if the jaw is out of commission for
    chewing.

    I'm way ahead of you 😉

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven
    [email hidden] says...
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    he was going faster than would be expected of pavement users.


    Percisely. :-)

  10. I live on a main road where there are frequently pavement cyclists.
    When I take my car off the drive, I cross the pavement extremely
    carefully because I don't want to hit anyone, whether they should be
    there or not. It can be quite difficult to see far enough to allow for
    speeding pavement cyclists, but I work on the basis that if I inch my
    bonnet out slowly enough they will see me before I can see them.

    So, whilst Christopher was breaking the law, if it was found to be his
    fault purely because he's riding on the pavement, does that mean that if
    I see a cyclist on the pavement I can just ignore him and cross anyway?
    Of course not, but that would seem to be the message being sent out.

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  11. I feel as though I need to clear a few things up...

    Firstly -- and most importantly -- my sincerest thanks to all that
    have left genuine kind words and well wishes. It is very much
    appreciated 🙂 Whilst I didn't get much sleep, I actually seem to be
    mending quite rapidly; the doctor reckoned that I would be quite stiff
    this morning [no jokes: I've heard them all!], but it wasn't so and I
    actually feel quite sprightly. I'm off to the dentist in a bit and
    then I'll be back at work in the afternoon.
    Whilst I was hit from the side, my bike seems to be remarkably
    unscathed... It must be karma! The last time I was knocked-off (which
    was definitely not my fault), my bike was reduced to a written-off
    piece of warped metal, whereas I escaped with but a slightly twisted
    ankle. (As the driver paid the replacement cost with no hassle, I
    didn't really see the point in reporting it.)

    Anyway... For what it's worth, I didn't realise cycling of the
    pavement was actually illegal. (I do know, however, that ignorance of
    the law isn't a defence -- so don't start!)... That is the only strip
    of pavement I ever cycle on (out of hundreds of miles of my regular
    routes): after all, as a racer, I don't like cycling on the pavement.
    They're uneven, dangerous at anything over about 15mph and, with all
    the gear (lycra, aerobars, SPDs, etc.), one looks kind of silly, to
    say the least!
    Still, for the record, I wasn't posting in search of sympathy -- that
    would be pathetic -- nor legal advice, for that matter. I wouldn't
    even go as far as saying that I was looking for solidarity; yet, like
    I say, the empathy is well received (thanks again)... If anything, I
    was merely venting my frustration.

    As such, for the largely reciprocated pejorative, I'm outta here! This
    group used to be cool...

  12. byeeee! Oh, and next time you ride on the pavement, do it slowly and
    carefully enough that you won't hit anything or anyone *no matter what they
    do*. It's called defensive riding. Aka common sense.
    "Christopher Harrison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I feel as though I need to clear a few things up...

    Firstly -- and most importantly -- my sincerest thanks to all that
    have left genuine kind words and well wishes. It is very much
    appreciated 🙂 Whilst I didn't get much sleep, I actually seem to be
    mending quite rapidly; the doctor reckoned that I would be quite stiff
    this morning [no jokes: I've heard them all!], but it wasn't so and I
    actually feel quite sprightly. I'm off to the dentist in a bit and
    then I'll be back at work in the afternoon.
    Whilst I was hit from the side, my bike seems to be remarkably
    unscathed... It must be karma! The last time I was knocked-off (which
    was definitely not my fault), my bike was reduced to a written-off
    piece of warped metal, whereas I escaped with but a slightly twisted
    ankle. (As the driver paid the replacement cost with no hassle, I
    didn't really see the point in reporting it.)

    Anyway... For what it's worth, I didn't realise cycling of the
    pavement was actually illegal. (I do know, however, that ignorance of
    the law isn't a defence -- so don't start!)... That is the only strip
    of pavement I ever cycle on (out of hundreds of miles of my regular
    routes): after all, as a racer, I don't like cycling on the pavement.
    They're uneven, dangerous at anything over about 15mph and, with all
    the gear (lycra, aerobars, SPDs, etc.), one looks kind of silly, to
    say the least!
    Still, for the record, I wasn't posting in search of sympathy -- that
    would be pathetic -- nor legal advice, for that matter. I wouldn't
    even go as far as saying that I was looking for solidarity; yet, like
    I say, the empathy is well received (thanks again)... If anything, I
    was merely venting my frustration.

    As such, for the largely reciprocated pejorative, I'm outta here! This
    group used to be cool...

  13. On Jun 27, 11:56 pm, "spokes" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I have to say that I don't know what I find more amazing - the fact that you
    came here expecting sympathy or the fact that you got some. You were out of
    order, you were to blame, you got hurt. [censored] happens. If you do this kind of
    thing, you surely do it in the full awareness that if anything happens to
    you, you've got noone to blame but yourself. And yes, you should pay for any
    repairs to his car.

    Not really. He deserves some credit at least for posting an honest
    account of the incident. He obviously gets sympathy for his injuries
    but very little for riding on the pavement.

    He was certainly riding illegally at the time but it's not clear to me
    how the blame is to be divided between the two parties. If the
    motorist came hurtling out of the garage such that he would have hit a
    child on a micro-scooter then ISTM the larger part of the blame lies
    with him.

    --
    Dave...

  14. On Jun 28, 10:27 am, "spokes" <[email hidden]> top
    posted:

    Quoted message said:

    byeeee! Oh, and next time you ride on the pavement, do it slowly and
    carefully enough that you won't hit anything or anyone *no matter what they
    do*. It's called defensive riding. Aka common sense.

    He didn't hit anything or anyone though, did he? The car hit him.

    --
    Dave...

  15. while he was where he didn't ought to be. cycle on footpaths, you don't have
    a leg to stand on. metaphorically only, if you're lucky. end of.
    "dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Jun 28, 10:27 am, "spokes" <[email hidden]> top
    posted:

    Quoted message said:

    byeeee! Oh, and next time you ride on the pavement, do it slowly and
    carefully enough that you won't hit anything or anyone *no matter what
    they
    do*. It's called defensive riding. Aka common sense.

    He didn't hit anything or anyone though, did he? The car hit him.

    --
    Dave...

  16. Christopher Harrison said:

    after all, as a racer, I don't like cycling on the pavement.
    They're uneven, dangerous at anything over about 15mph

    That's optimistic -- I'd say about 8-10mph. The "design speed" is
    3-4mph, after all.

    B
    --
    Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
    Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
    [email hidden] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

  17. spokes said:

    while he was where he didn't ought to be. cycle on footpaths, you don't have
    a leg to stand on. metaphorically only, if you're lucky. end of.

    Do stop top-posting. It's a pain in the neck for others, even if it's
    convenient for you.

    Anyway, the legislation was never meant to be as inflexible as you seem
    to paint it.

    Home Office Minister Paul Boateng:

    "The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing
    so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement,
    acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people,
    are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police
    discretion is required."

    Home Office Advice:

    "CSOs and accredited persons will be accountable in the same way as
    police officers. They will be under the direction and control of the
    chief officer, supervised on a daily basis by the local community beat
    officer and will be subject to the same police complaints system. The
    Government have included provision in the Anti Social Behaviour Bill to
    enable CSOs and accredited persons to stop those cycling irresponsibly
    on the pavement in order to issue a fixed penalty notice.

    "I should stress that the issue is about inconsiderate cycling on the
    pavements. The new provisions are not aimed at responsible cyclists who
    sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic,
    and who show consideration to other road users when doing so. Chief
    officers recognise that the fixed penalty needs to be used with a
    considerable degree of discretion and it cannot be issued to anyone
    under the age of 16. (Letter to Mr H. Peel from John Crozier of The Home
    Office, reference T5080/4, 23 February 2004) "

    The CTC's position on the pavement cycling FPNs is that it is a
    demonisation of a minority group, where cyclists are caught in a pincer
    action between the Law on the pavement and the health hazard of the
    road, especially if the Law does not recognise the difference between
    responsible and irresponsible riding.

  18. On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:12:26 -0000,

    Christopher Harrison said:

    Anyway... For what it's worth, I didn't realise cycling of the
    pavement was actually illegal. (I do know, however, that ignorance of
    the law isn't a defence -- so don't start!)... That is the only strip
    of pavement I ever cycle on (out of hundreds of miles of my regular
    routes): after all, as a racer, I don't like cycling on the pavement.
    They're uneven, dangerous at anything over about 15mph and, with all
    the gear (lycra, aerobars, SPDs, etc.), one looks kind of silly, to
    say the least!

    So you think that they are relatively safe when you are going at around
    14 mph? No-one should be on a pavement going that fast.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  19. On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:41:08 +0100,

    Marc Brett said:
    spokes said:

    while he was where he didn't ought to be. cycle on footpaths, you don't have
    a leg to stand on. metaphorically only, if you're lucky. end of.

    Do stop top-posting. It's a pain in the neck for others, even if it's
    convenient for you.

    Anyway, the legislation was never meant to be as inflexible as you seem
    to paint it.

    Home Office Minister Paul Boateng:

    "The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    traffic

    Again. He admits to cycling of the footpath for convenience not out
    of fear.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  20. "Marc Brett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    spokes said:

    while he was where he didn't ought to be. cycle on footpaths, you don't
    have
    a leg to stand on. metaphorically only, if you're lucky. end of.

    Do stop top-posting. It's a pain in the neck for others, even if it's
    convenient for you.

    Anyway, the legislation was never meant to be as inflexible as you seem
    to paint it.

    Home Office Minister Paul Boateng:

    "The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing
    so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement,
    acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people,
    are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police
    discretion is required."

    Home Office Advice:

    "CSOs and accredited persons will be accountable in the same way as
    police officers. They will be under the direction and control of the
    chief officer, supervised on a daily basis by the local community beat
    officer and will be subject to the same police complaints system. The
    Government have included provision in the Anti Social Behaviour Bill to
    enable CSOs and accredited persons to stop those cycling irresponsibly
    on the pavement in order to issue a fixed penalty notice.

    "I should stress that the issue is about inconsiderate cycling on the
    pavements. The new provisions are not aimed at responsible cyclists who
    sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic,
    and who show consideration to other road users when doing so. Chief
    officers recognise that the fixed penalty needs to be used with a
    considerable degree of discretion and it cannot be issued to anyone
    under the age of 16. (Letter to Mr H. Peel from John Crozier of The Home
    Office, reference T5080/4, 23 February 2004) "

    The CTC's position on the pavement cycling FPNs is that it is a
    demonisation of a minority group, where cyclists are caught in a pincer
    action between the Law on the pavement and the health hazard of the
    road, especially if the Law does not recognise the difference between
    responsible and irresponsible riding.

    Sorry to be inconvenient. Is this better?

    "I should stress that the issue is about inconsiderate cycling on the
    pavements."

    Such as adults riding on the footpaths to avoid - by their own admission -
    not 'the health hazard of the road' but simply inconvenience to them, fast
    enough and carelessly enough that they fail to avoid a car and require
    hospitalisation when they come off. This is not the 'flexibility' they're
    talking about. And to pretend otherwise is to muddy the issue.

    It's really really simple. If you do things like this, you take the
    consequences. I'm sure we all, for example, overtake lines of stationary
    traffic on the inside. But we do it really carefully, not least because we
    know that if we come a cropper because someone opens a door without looking,
    it's our fault. Yes, maybe they should have looked. But they are under no
    obligation to. Because overtaking on the inside is illegal, period. And if
    you do it, you do it at your own risk. And if it all goes pear-shaped, you
    put your hands up and take the consequences. What you don't do is go bawling
    off to your peers like a big girls blouse.

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