Crashed today

"B i l l S o r n s o n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I say the wind blew it over and for some reason you hit it instead of
(rather easily) avoiding it. Call the company if you must, but it's plain
old operator error IMO.

Sorry.
--
BS (no, really)

So the company lied to me when they told me they did it?

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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cheg said:

That was what I hit. Of course I cleared the path after I hit it. I went

back

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this afternoon and set it back out long enough out to get the picture. The

sign

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was exactly as shown and the stand was approximately as shown. It was not

the

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wind, not some punks, not God. The construction company told me that they

take

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the signs down when they are not doing road work, they just don't bother to
clear the shoulder. Should I just pick another route and let the next

cyclist

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eat it or should I call the company? What do you think?

I think your DOT sucks. But I am curious if you had a light on the
bike, although even with one it'd be pretty hard to see that rusty stand
on a rainy night.

Rich

Yes I have a Cateye EL-200 headlight. You'd have to have a lot of light to see
that in the dark in heavy rain. No street lighting on that stretch.

cheg said:

"B i l l S o r n s o n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I say the wind blew it over and for some reason you hit it instead of
(rather easily) avoiding it. Call the company if you must, but it's
plain old operator error IMO.

Sorry.
--
BS (no, really)

So the company lied to me when they told me they did it?

OK, I re-read the thread. I find it hard to believe a "Construction
company" would say "we take down the signs when we're done but we don't
clear the lane" -- seems to me they'd collect the sign(s) and stand(s) to
re-use -- but assuming they did say that, why do you need to call them
again? Do you want restitution?

Given the way you re-created the obstacles for the photo, you had plenty of
room to ride in the cleared portion of the bike lane instead of in the
debris-laden section where the boards were.

I still say that riding "in the dark" requires an extra degree of caution.
Chalk it up to experience and be more careful down the road...

Still sorry,
--
BS (no, really)

"B i l l S o r n s o n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

cheg said:

"B i l l S o r n s o n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I say the wind blew it over and for some reason you hit it instead of
(rather easily) avoiding it. Call the company if you must, but it's
plain old operator error IMO.

Sorry.
--
BS (no, really)

So the company lied to me when they told me they did it?

OK, I re-read the thread. I find it hard to believe a "Construction
company" would say "we take down the signs when we're done but we don't
clear the lane" -- seems to me they'd collect the sign(s) and stand(s) to
re-use -- but assuming they did say that, why do you need to call them
again? Do you want restitution?

They just drop them in the shoulder and set them up again the next day when
construction resumes.

The question "should I call" was a hypothetical question about what to do in
such a situation,. In fact I had already called when I wrote the second message.
I know that riding in the dark requires caution, I do it very frequently in the
winter. It is easier to be safe when people refrain from creating hazards that
are trivial for them to prevent.

Quoted message said:

Given the way you re-created the obstacles for the photo, you had plenty of
room to ride in the cleared portion of the bike lane instead of in the
debris-laden section where the boards were.

I still say that riding "in the dark" requires an extra degree of caution.
Chalk it up to experience and be more careful down the road...

Still sorry,
--
BS (no, really)

Quoted message said:

"cheg" [email hidden]

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Riding home from work in the dark and hard rain at about 5:00 on a well
paved,
wide shouldered, but busy road. Ran into a heavy roadsign tripod laying flat
on
the ground, spread out on the shoulder of the road. Fell pretty hard, tore up
my
rainpants, broke a spoke in the front wheel. <%$^@*#!. Fortunately, the bike
was
still mobile, and the wheel is probably repairable. I plan to contact the
construction company to [censored] at them anyway.

Be careful out there.

Crashes bite but at least the damage was confined to property and pride, i.e.,
no injuries to your person.
I don't mean to be critical but the first rule of "being careful" is watching
where you are going and you can't do that after dark without lights.
BTW, since it's pretty much standard practice I bet I know what they'll say
when you call the construction company. "We took down the sign warning of
construction ahead when we closed down work for the day. We have no choice, we
have to do that. Rather than inflate the contract price by hauling the signs
and tripods to the site every day and hauling them off every night, our crews
remove the signs entirely (to prevent theft) and move the tripods off of the
roadway."
If instead of [censored] at them you politely point out that the tripod was
laying flat on the paved shoulder and so was a forseeable hazard to *any*
vehicle forced to use that shoulder, tell them what the repair cost to your
bike is (one spoke and a wheel truing), and ask them to compensate you for your
damaged wheel you may be pleasantly surprised. They may even agree to buy you a
new pair of rainpants. Best of all, they'll almost certainly remind their crews
to make sure they don't leave stuff on the shoulder that can end up costing the
company money in damage claims.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Quoted message said:

Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

I've ridden in bike lanes
that have had construction signs purposely set up in them. In my mind,
this can't be justified unless something _very_ unusual is going on.
The signs are usually just as visible if they're on the curb. Sure, a
dozing motorist may be very slightly less likely to see the sign - but
is the small chance of that worth more than the greater possibility of
bicyclist injury?

I'd certainly complain, and in writing, and to several agencies,
including the local newspaper.

"(S)everal agencies, including the local newspaper"? Geez, Frank! Who would you
complain to besides the appropriate DOT and where do you live that the local
newspaper is going to report on such a minor incident?
As for setting up road signs on sidewalks- First, they are *road* signs not
pedestrian walkway signs. The further away from the roadway they are moved the
less effective they become. In a situation where there is no on-street parking
that could obscure the signs and the roadway has no shoulders, I might see some
utility in putting signs on the curb. I just don't know of too many streets
where that "no parking and no shoulders" situation exists. Those few streets I
can recall where that situation does exist the curb line is immediately
adjacent to the sidewalk, i.e., no parkway so those signs would perforce block
the sidewalk. That leads to my second point namely, you'd rather be forced to
dodge sidewalk users as they step unexpectedly into the bike lane to get around
signs impeding their progress than to simply take the lane to avoid a fixed
object? That makes no sense to me at all. Finally, "sidewalk users" include the
very young, the very old, and people with physical disabilities. Why should
their progress be impeded and their safety compromised for the sake of a bike
lane?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"cheg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:eMQtd.160414$V41.69835@attbi_s52...

Quoted message said:

That was what I hit. Of course I cleared the path after I hit it. I went

back

Quoted message said:

this afternoon and set it back out long enough out to get the picture. The

sign

Quoted message said:

was exactly as shown and the stand was approximately as shown. It was not

the

Quoted message said:

wind, not some punks, not God. The construction company told me that they

take

Quoted message said:

the signs down when they are not doing road work, they just don't bother

to

Quoted message said:

clear the shoulder. Should I just pick another route and let the next

cyclist

Quoted message said:

eat it or should I call the company? What do you think? Lets let Cheto

decide,

Quoted message said:

he's the freaking expert on personal responsibility.

#1..Don't get all excited. You're OK and your bike can be fixed.

#2..You were riding faster than the road conditions permitted. You may not
think so, but I saw the pic you posted - but had you been riding during
daylight hours with no rain - you could easily have been able to see the
obstacle and could have avoided hitting it.

#3..And, yes, I am the freaking expert on personal responsibility

Cheto

"Hunrobe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"cheg" [email hidden]

Crashes bite but at least the damage was confined to property and pride, i.e.,
no injuries to your person.
I don't mean to be critical but the first rule of "being careful" is watching
where you are going and you can't do that after dark without lights.
BTW, since it's pretty much standard practice I bet I know what they'll say
when you call the construction company. "We took down the sign warning of
construction ahead when we closed down work for the day. We have no choice, we
have to do that. Rather than inflate the contract price by hauling the signs
and tripods to the site every day and hauling them off every night, our crews
remove the signs entirely (to prevent theft) and move the tripods off of the
roadway."
If instead of [censored] at them you politely point out that the tripod was
laying flat on the paved shoulder and so was a forseeable hazard to *any*
vehicle forced to use that shoulder, tell them what the repair cost to your
bike is (one spoke and a wheel truing), and ask them to compensate you for

your

Quoted message said:

damaged wheel you may be pleasantly surprised. They may even agree to buy you

a

Quoted message said:

new pair of rainpants. Best of all, they'll almost certainly remind their

crews

Quoted message said:

to make sure they don't leave stuff on the shoulder that can end up costing

the

Quoted message said:

company money in damage claims.

I just told them that they were at high risk of causing serious injury and
getting sued by some other less lucky rider. I asked them to move the signs 6
feet farther from the traffic lanes when they take them down. They don't have to
haul them anywhere. As of yesterday, they had not done that. The signs were down
but this time blocking the entire shoulder right out the the lane marker. Maybe
the word had not reached the job site. I'll see what their response is when I
ride through there on the way home tonight. I'm less worried about the money
than getting them to stop leaving [censored] in the right of way when they don't have
to.

B i l l S o r n s o n said:

cheg said:

I don't mind signs set up in the bike lane because you can see them,
but I do mind this:
http://home.comcast.net/~a0000004/sign_stand.jpg

That was what I hit. Of course I cleared the path after I hit it. I
went back this afternoon and set it back out long enough out to get
the picture. The sign was exactly as shown and the stand was
approximately as shown. It was not the wind, not some punks, not God.
The construction company told me that they take the signs down when
they are not doing road work, they just don't bother to clear the
shoulder. Should I just pick another route and let the next cyclist
eat it or should I call the company? What do you think? Lets let
Cheto decide, he's the freaking expert on personal responsibility.

I say the wind blew it over and for some reason you hit it instead of
(rather easily) avoiding it. Call the company if you must, but it's plain
old operator error IMO.

Sorry.

I have to disagree. I have a 10 watt halogen that is pretty good, plus
a planet bike AA headlight as a backup, but dark stuff against a dark
street in rain and I'm going to hit it. I've already hit potholes
unexpectedly because I just can't see depth the way I do in full
daylight.

I suppose that those times when I was told to put my toys away because
someone would trip over them that I should have just said "well watch
we're you're going". I think I did once. Not again.

Hunrobe said:

Quoted message said:

Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

I've ridden in bike lanes
that have had construction signs purposely set up in them. In my mind,
this can't be justified unless something _very_ unusual is going on.
The signs are usually just as visible if they're on the curb. Sure, a
dozing motorist may be very slightly less likely to see the sign - but
is the small chance of that worth more than the greater possibility of
bicyclist injury?

I'd certainly complain, and in writing, and to several agencies,
including the local newspaper.

"(S)everal agencies, including the local newspaper"? Geez, Frank! Who would you
complain to besides the appropriate DOT and where do you live that the local
newspaper is going to report on such a minor incident?

Geez, Rob! Itching for a fight? So much so that you're willing to
throw common sense out the window?

I'd write to the newspaper for this purpose: Bike lanes are too often
seen as "the" solution to accommodating cyclists on the road. Yet
they're too often not taken seriously once installed. The ones I'm most
familiar with are trash pits, and this is an extreme case of that.

A properly phrased letter to the editor would raise consciousness that
road departments must be conscious of the safety requirements of
cyclists, that bike lanes should be kept as clear as motoring lanes.
Publicity of a letter to the editor means the managers in charge are
more likely to pay attention.

And FWIW, such a letter _would_ likely be published in our paper, which
has a circulation well over 75,000, IIRC.

Quoted message said:

As for setting up road signs on sidewalks- First, they are *road* signs not
pedestrian walkway signs. The further away from the roadway they are moved the
less effective they become.

You are arguing nonsense. Would you advocate setting up warning signs
in an open motor vehicle lane? Would you advocate leaving disassembled
signs in an open motor vehicle lane? Why are you arguing in favor of
leaving them in an open bike lane?

In a situation where there is no on-street parking...

Look at the pictures.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

"cheg" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I just told them that they were at high risk of causing serious injury

and

Quoted message said:

getting sued by some other less lucky rider. I asked them to move the

signs 6

Quoted message said:

feet farther from the traffic lanes when they take them down. They don't

have to

Quoted message said:

haul them anywhere. As of yesterday, they had not done that. The signs

were down

Quoted message said:

but this time blocking the entire shoulder right out the the lane marker.

I'd be very surprised if this wasn't illegal. My first response would be to
contact whatever PD has jurisdiction. I think that whatever you could
accomplish in getting these people to clean up their act would be a real
civic contribution.

"dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have to disagree. I have a 10 watt halogen that is pretty good, plus
a planet bike AA headlight as a backup, but dark stuff against a dark
street in rain and I'm going to hit it. I've already hit potholes
unexpectedly because I just can't see depth the way I do in full
daylight.

A lot of accidents seem to be caused by riders hitting stuff, particularly
at night, especially rainy nights. Standing water is a real problem because
you usually can't see what lurks beneath. when I'm forced to ride in these
circumstances I watch my speed, try to avoid puddles, and, if there's a fog
line, ride just to the left of it, as it will usually reveal a pothole
that's under water. Another thing that helps is to use much fatter tires
during the dark riding times of the year.

Cheto said:

#3..And, yes, I am the freaking expert on personal responsibility

are you in the habit of throwing road debris into the traffic lane in
front of your house? it might be a fun exercise to do so, wait for some-
one to hit it and then loudly champion personal responsibility to them.

i mean you might be partly right .. but you'd also be largely to blame.
you might also get yourself hit.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Cheto said:

#1..Don't get all excited. You're OK and your bike can be fixed.

Both good things.

Quoted message said:

#2..You were riding faster than the road conditions permitted. You may not
think so, but I saw the pic you posted - but had you been riding during
daylight hours with no rain - you could easily have been able to see the
obstacle and could have avoided hitting it.

The obstacle would not have been there had the construction company
not been negligent. The debris was not an act of god, it was a
deliberate act that put it in the path of cyclists. I'd keep the
repair receipts for the bike and send a demand letter to the
construction company for reimbursement. It costs almost nothing to
do that much.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

cheg said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree that it's annoying when signs are erected in the bike lane, but
I figure the big-picture tradeoff is probably worth it. 1000s of
motorists are alerted to the consturction, only a few bikers are
inconvenienced. Probably not a popular stand here on this group, but
seems rational to me.

As for this instance, it's possible they just left it lying there, or
someone (punk teenagers, they're easy to blame) could have knocked it
down, or it could have fallen off a truck. It's hard to say who's at
fault for it lying on the roadway.

I don't mind signs set up in the bike lane because you can see them, but I do
mind this:
http://home.comcast.net/~a0000004/sign_stand.jpg

That was what I hit. Of course I cleared the path after I hit it. I went back
this afternoon and set it back out long enough out to get the picture. The sign
was exactly as shown and the stand was approximately as shown. It was not the
wind, not some punks, not God. The construction company told me that they take
the signs down when they are not doing road work, they just don't bother to
clear the shoulder. Should I just pick another route and let the next cyclist
eat it or should I call the company? What do you think? Lets let Cheto decide,
he's the freaking expert on personal responsibility.

We could be complete [censored] and let your attorney decide.

They pay the rent with this stuff.

Ron

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 04:46:02 GMT, "cheg" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree that it's annoying when signs are erected in the bike lane, but
I figure the big-picture tradeoff is probably worth it. 1000s of
motorists are alerted to the consturction, only a few bikers are
inconvenienced. Probably not a popular stand here on this group, but
seems rational to me.

As for this instance, it's possible they just left it lying there, or
someone (punk teenagers, they're easy to blame) could have knocked it
down, or it could have fallen off a truck. It's hard to say who's at
fault for it lying on the roadway.

I don't mind signs set up in the bike lane because you can see them, but I do
mind this:
http://home.comcast.net/~a0000004/sign_stand.jpg

That was what I hit. Of course I cleared the path after I hit it. I went back
this afternoon and set it back out long enough out to get the picture. The sign
was exactly as shown and the stand was approximately as shown. It was not the
wind, not some punks, not God. The construction company told me that they take
the signs down when they are not doing road work, they just don't bother to
clear the shoulder. Should I just pick another route and let the next cyclist
eat it or should I call the company? What do you think? Lets let Cheto decide,
he's the freaking expert on personal responsibility.

I'd say that given all the [censored] you're being given, you might just as
well have gone straight for the ambulance chaser!

--
"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber-
baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who
torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they
do so with the approval of their own conscience."

- C.S. Lewis

David Reuteler said:

are you in the habit of throwing road debris into the traffic lane in
front of your house? it might be a fun exercise to do so, wait for some-
one to hit it and then loudly champion personal responsibility to them.

i mean you might be partly right .. but you'd also be largely to blame.
you might also get yourself hit.

The construction company was undoubtedly
negligent.

But the rider is profoundly (maybe not legally)
"at fault" in the incident. I don't mean to impugn
the OP's riding too much. We've all made similar
mistakes, or will eventually. I once hit a brick
that was lying in the road, that was a bad thing.
I think it is John Allen, author of Street Smarts,
who once hit a branch and landed on his head.

How or why the object arrived there is quite
irrelevant while you're riding into it.

Robert

R15757 said:

David Reuteler said:

are you in the habit of throwing road debris into the traffic lane in
front of your house? it might be a fun exercise to do so, wait for some-
one to hit it and then loudly champion personal responsibility to them.

i mean you might be partly right .. but you'd also be largely to blame.
you might also get yourself hit.

The construction company was undoubtedly
negligent.

But the rider is profoundly (maybe not legally)
"at fault" in the incident.

well, i disagree. they both share the blame. if you mean to imply that
because the rider should have been looking the construction company is any
less negligent, they aren't. similarly one could not say that the rider
has any less obligation to look for objects in the road because it's
negligent for someone to place them there, he doesn't. but personal
responsibility applies to both parties and the other's obligations do not
diminish the responsibility or culpibility of the other.

your implicit logic is different, tho. you're not talking about culpability
but it *seems* to me you're saying that any situation that could have been
reasonably** avoided by the rider is their fault if they for whatever
reason do not.

perhaps that's a good perspective to ride from (never rely on anyone else
to do the right thing). but just because i could have reasonably avoided
an accident doesn't mean someone else doesn't share in the blame. and i'm
sure as hell gonna call the construction company afterwards. especially
because for such an easy amount of effort they can reduce the likelihood
of future accidents.

** good lord, however you chose to define that.

Quoted message said:

How or why the object arrived there is quite
irrelevant while you're riding into it.

it sure is afterwards, tho. and that was the question.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

David Reuteler said:

Quoted message said:

How or why the object arrived there is quite
irrelevant while you're riding into it.

it sure is afterwards, tho. and that was the question.

I'm not saying he shouldn't [censored] to the
construction company--he did and it worked
out nicely. But if your first reaction after
running into something in your path, that you
simply overlooked through lack of attention,
is anger at somebody else or at an inanimate
object, that could be a problem.
Those who count
on others to take care of them will find
they are not taken care of at all. All I'm saying
is go whole hog with this attitude and, when
you hit some object in the road, be mad at
yourself as well as the construction company.

Reality includes
multiple objects and debris out on the roads,
and it's every rider's responsibility to avoid
it. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement
of fact.

How can two parties share "personal responsibility?"
Personal responsibility is not a group effort.

Robert

R15757 said:

Reality includes
multiple objects and debris out on the roads,
and it's every rider's responsibility to avoid
it. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement
of fact.

why do you think i disagree with this? it's also not an opinion that it was
the responsibility of the construction company to not clutter the traffic
lane. that is also a simple statement of fact. they each have
responsibilities.

Quoted message said:

How can two parties share "personal responsibility?"

they don't. i didn't say that. i said one's responsibility does not
absolve the other of theirs.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]