Coq au vin: Skinless??? And Kosher???



H

Higgins

Guest
I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this is
a bad idea??

Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter
and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???

Thanks
 
Higgins wrote:
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
> it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
> falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this
> is a bad idea??
>
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
> course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>
> Thanks

It's not just meat from a kosher place. It is the whole dinner that would have to be
carefully planned.

There may not be anything dairy served, such as butter on the vegetables, or onions caramelized in
butter. There may not be shrimps or other seafood as appetizers or hors d'oeuvres and as you know
already, no bacon or other forbidden meat in the coq au vin.

The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be butter, milk, cream or cheese
as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or whipped cream with dessert, either.

If you want your kosher friend to partake of the dinner, the best would be to have her tell you what
you may and may not do and serve.

I am Jewish, but I don't even try to invite my kosher friends to a meat meal in my house. A dairy
meal, such as blitzes or fruit dumplings or other dishes like that, yes, but these are meals that
are mainly served in summer.

Good luck. I hope that you can work it out.

Margaret
 
x-no-archive: yes

Higgins wrote:

>
>I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
>it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
>falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this is
>a bad idea??
>

IMO, if the skin is turning gray it's because you didn't brown the pieces well before putting them
in the sauce to cook. Perhaps you should try that and give it another shot. I've made coq au vin
bianco with skinless cuts and it's just not as good. Plus, if you don't have skin, the meat may turn
a funny color. (Besides browning, I've found you can avoid color problems by reducing the wine some
prior to adding it.)

>Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
>course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter
>and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>

Maybe someone else can help you out with this part.

Naomi D.
 
[email protected] (Higgins) writes:

>I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
>it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
>falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this is
>a bad idea??
>
>Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
>course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter
>and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???

Most stupidmarkets sell some form of fercocktah kosher bacon... were it me I simply add a few small
drops liquid smoke. Anyway, coq au vin for 17 is a huge undertaking, requiring a minimum of 20
pounds of fowl... but then this dish is always a risk, especially if you don't know your guests
tastes very well... some folks love coq au vin, while many others detest stewed fowl, especially if
it's purple. I'd not choose to serve coq au vin for a new year's dinner, especially not to guests
whose tastes I don't know... you're liable to find yourself eating coq all week.

AUTHENTIC COQ AU VIN A true coq au vin is made with the master of the farmyard, a rooster. If you
can't find such a beast, use a good-size roasting chicken, and reduce the cooking time (cook it for
about one hour, or until the meat is tender and cooked but not falling from the bone). 2 tablespoons
unsalted butter One 7-8 pound rooster ( 3 and one half to 4 pound stewing hen or roasting chicken),
cut in serving pieces, with giblets One half cup cup calvados, brandy, poire william or other
liqueur (if using a chicken, reduce the amount of liqueur to one-quarter cup) 12 ounces slab bacon,
rind removed and cut into 1-inch chunks (use 8 ounces if cooking a chicken) 1 slice air-cured ham,
diced Sea Salt and freshly ground black pepper 1 bottle hearty red wine One bouquet garni (thyme,
bay, parsley wrapped together) 2 cloves garlic, green germ removed 2 cups chicken stock

For the garnish: 1 tablespoon unsalted butter 1 pound mushrooms, cleaned and trimmed Sea salt and
freshly ground black pepper

To thicken the sauce: 2 tablespoons unsalted butter 3 tablespoons all-purpose flour

Melt the butter in a large, heavy stockpot over medium heat. When the butter is hot, brown the
rooster on all sides, doing so in two batches if necessary. Standing back and making sure your hair
is tied back and your clothes are not over the heat, add the liqueur, then flame it by lighting a
match and holding it just above the pot. The liqueur will catch fire and flames will leap into the
air and burn out within 1 minute.

Remove the chicken from the pan and add the bacon. Brown it on all sides. While the bacon is
browning, mince the ham with the liver and the gizzard. When the bacon is browned, add the
chicken back to the pan and season with salt and pepper. Pour the wine over all. Stir in the ham
and the giblets, add the bouquet garni and the garlic, and pour in just enough chicken stock to
cover the chicken. Bring the liquid to a boil, reduce the heat so it is simmering, cover and cook
until the chicken is tender but not falling from the bone (1-1/2 hours for a rooster; about 1
hour for chicken).

Make the garnish: While the rooster is cooking, heat the butter for the mushrooms over medium heat.
When it is foaming, add the mushrooms and cook, stirring frequently, until the mushrooms are tender
and their juices have evaporated, 5 to 7 minutes. Season lightly, remove from the heat and reserve.

Make the sauce: Blend the butter and flour in a small bowl to a homogeneous paste. When the chicken
is cooked, about 1/4 cup of the cooking juices into the flour and butter mixture, then pour that
mixture into the pan holding the chicken. Stir it in and let it cook, stirring, until the sauce is
thickened. Taste for seasoning and remove from the heat. Let the dish sit at least 8 hours, or
overnight, before serving.

Serves 6 to 8 (if using a rooster); serves 4 to 6 (if using a chicken).

Letter from France Susan Herrmann Loomis

---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- Sheldon
```````````` "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
 
I make a porkless version of coq au vin frequently. It is the recipe from Joy of Cooking minus the
salt pork. I use vegetable oil to brown the chicken pieces instead. I've made it with both skinless
and with- skin chicken. The with-skin version is far better. The fat in the skin adds flavor. If the
skin is unattractive, just remove it before serving. Also, while the recipe calls for a broiler or
roasting chicken, I buy legs and thighs and use them (since no one in my household likes the white
meat that much) so I see no problem with your plan.

I'll leave how you entertain your friends up to you, but will add this: I wouldn't bother making a
separate dish for one person if I were entertaining 17. I'd just buy kosher chicken for everyone and
make the pork free product for all in one big pot. The flavor won't be perfectly authentic, but it
will be very good. I never mind the time it takes to cook something separately for one person, but I
find the refrigerator space, keeping all separate, telling the guests "oh wait, that's for Mr. Cohen
over there" (which leads to noticing if Mr. Cohen has eaten his whole portion and not being able to
tell him to help himself to more), all that's a pain in the neck when I'm busy trying to entertain a
house full of guests. Cooking is a pleasure, but organizing and singling people out isn't. Whenever
I have vegetarian guests, I just make plenty of the vegetarian dishes that they and everyone else
can eat. I apply the same philosophy to heart healthy and other special diets. Much easier that way.

--Lia

Higgins wrote:
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
> it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
> falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this
> is a bad idea?
>
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
> course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor?
>
> Thanks
 
Julia Altshuler wrote:
> I make a porkless version of coq au vin frequently. It is the recipe from Joy of Cooking minus the
> salt pork. I use vegetable oil to brown the chicken pieces instead. I've made it with both
> skinless and with- skin chicken. The with-skin version is far better. The fat in the skin adds
> flavor. If the skin is unattractive, just remove it before serving. Also, while the recipe calls
> for a broiler or roasting chicken, I buy legs and thighs and use them (since no one in my
> household likes the white meat that much) so I see no problem with your plan.
>
> I'll leave how you entertain your friends up to you, but will add this: I wouldn't bother making a
> separate dish for one person if I were entertaining 17. I'd just buy kosher chicken for everyone
> and make the pork free product for all in one big pot. The flavor won't be perfectly authentic,
> but it will be very good. I never mind the time it takes to cook something separately for one
> person, but I find the refrigerator space, keeping all separate, telling the guests "oh wait,
> that's for Mr. Cohen over there" (which leads to noticing if Mr. Cohen has eaten his whole portion
> and not being able to tell him to help himself to more), all that's a pain in the neck when I'm
> busy trying to entertain a house full of guests. Cooking is a pleasure, but organizing and
> singling people out isn't. Whenever I have vegetarian guests, I just make plenty of the vegetarian
> dishes that they and everyone else can eat. I apply the same philosophy to heart healthy and other
> special diets. Much easier that way.
>
> --Lia
>
>
> Higgins wrote:
>
>> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can
>> make it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray
>> and falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason
>> this is a bad idea?
>>
>> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But,
>> of course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
>> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a diabetic or a vegetarian
is a cinch.

It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of what is involved. Buying
meat from a kosher butcher is the very least. If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock or
a chicken flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher, too. I cannot
believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not care about the other foods or ingredients
being served.

Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host to get meat especially for her
and there may be a small misunderstanding.

Margaret
 
And you'll need kosher wine for the coq as well.

Kosher butchers may have beef bacon, they will certainly have beef sausages. Maybe ask the butcher
for some beef fat to render in the pan?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"

Bah! Humbug!

"Higgins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
> it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
> falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this
> is a bad idea??
>
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
> course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>
> Thanks
 
Higgins <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
> it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
> falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this
> is a bad idea??

It is a bad idea because a lot of taste is in the skin. If appearance is so important to you, I'd
say you would do better by removing the skin after cooking. Myself, I wouldn't dream of doing any
such thing.

> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
> course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???

Bacon or other pork products are certainly not at all an essential part of the dish, even in the
old, traditional coq au vin rouge version (see below). It would be certainly very unusual to use
pork in a coq au vin blanc recipe. Personally, I very much prefer the Alsatian coq au riesling
version (also see below).

Here is a red-wine version sans pork products. The recipe is from Elizabeth David's _French
Country Cooking_.

Coq au vin

This is a very old recipe for _Coq au Vin_ and the blood is not in this case added to the sauce
as in latter recipes. You need a plump tender chicken (it doesn't _have_ to be a cockerel)
weighing about 3 lb when cleaned and trussed. Season the bird inside and out with salt, pepper
and lemon juice; into a deep heavy pan put 3 or 4 oz of butter and brown the chicken all over in
it; pour over a small glass of brandy and set it alight; when the flames have died down, pour in
a whole bottle of good red wine - Mâcon, Beaujolais or Châteauneuf du Pape. Add the giblets of
the bird, cover the pan and simmer slowly either on top of the stove or in a low oven for about 1
1/2 hours. In the meantime, prepare 20 or so little onions, browned in butter and glazed with a
little sugar and red wine, and 1/2 lb of mushrooms, sautéed in butter. A few minutes before the
chicken is ready, take out the giblets and add the onions and mushrooms. Remove the chicken onto
a hot dish and carve it for serving. The sauce should by this time be sufficiently reduced to
need no thickening, but if it is not add an ounce of butter worked with 3/4 oz of flour, put the
pan on to high flame and let the sauce bubble until it is thick enough. Pour it over the pieces
of chicken, and arrange the mushrooms and the onions on the top.

And here is a white-wine version based on the recipe found in _Die Weinstuben des Elsaß_ by
Wolfram Siebeck.

Coq au Riesling

1 chicken (ideally cockerel) weighing 1.5 to 2 kg (3.3 to 4.4 lb) 2 cl (0.7 fl. oz) Cognac
1/4 l (1.1 cups) Riesling 50 g (1.8 oz) butter some oil 1 cup defatted chicken stock 1 bouquet garni
30 g (1.1 oz) shallots, finely chopped 1 dl (0.4 cups) crème fraîche 150 g (0.7 oz) champignons
(button mushrooms), finely chopped Nutmeg marjoram parsley 1 garlic clove salt and pepper

Joint the chicken and fry the pieces in a mix of butter and oil until golden brown, add the shallots
and fry until golden, too. Skim off the fat, add Cognac and light it. Pour in the Riesling and the
stock. Add the bouquet garni and cook for 30-40 minutes. Take out the chicken pieces and reduce the
sauce to two-thirds. Add crème fraîche and heat through. Now strain the sauce, work in the butter,
add the champignons and cook for 1 minute. Serve with noodles.
 
PENMART01 wrote:
> Margaret Suran writes:
>
>> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>>> I make a porkless version of coq au vin frequently.
(snip)
>>> --Lia
>>>
>>>
>>> Higgins wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher.
(snip)
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>> Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a diabetic or a vegetarian is
>> a cinch.
>>
>> It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of what is involved. Buying
>> meat from a kosher butcher is the very least.
(snip)
> It's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home... not even a glass of water and a
> toothpic.
(snip)
> Sheldon ````````````
I'm not Jewish, but I work with a guy named Menasha, who is from Israel, who keeps absolute Kosher.
Sheldon is correct. Menasha will not eat in other peoples homes. His brother in law was a gentile
and when he died, Menasha wouldn't even have his china in his house. He gave it to another
(Christian) coworker rather than bury it for a ritual 15 years (or something like that).

This makes me wonder a lot about SamD's post about Christmas/Hanukkah dinner. Obviously it wasn't
Kosher according to the strict definition. But it sure sounded great!

Jill
 
Margaret Suran <[email protected]> wrote:
> Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a diabetic or a vegetarian is
> a cinch.

> It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of what is involved. Buying
> meat from a kosher butcher is the very least. If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock
> or a chicken flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher, too. I cannot
> believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not care about the other foods or
> ingredients being served.

> Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host to get meat especially for
> her and there may be a small misunderstanding.

Absolutely. In addition, the pot and other utensiles must not have been used to cook any dairy
products. Ditto for the silverware and plates that will be used to serve the food.
 
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Margaret Suran <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a diabetic or a vegetarian is
> > a cinch.
>
> > It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of what is involved. Buying
> > meat from a kosher butcher is the very least. If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock
> > or a chicken flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher, too. I
> > cannot believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not care about the other foods or
> > ingredients being served.
>
> > Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host to get meat especially for
> > her and there may be a small misunderstanding.
>
> Absolutely. In addition, the pot and other utensiles must not have been used to cook any dairy
> products. Ditto for the silverware and plates that will be used to serve the food.

That's pretty much what I didn't understand. Not being Jewish, never mind kosher, I haven't the
vaguest idea how someone keeping kosher could eat in a non kosher home. I *guarantee* you I have no
plates or pots or utensils, etc., to tell someone it never touched pork or dairy or whatever.

Just saying, get a kosher chicken, that really doesn't cut it.

Personally, if I kept kosher (not a plan), I would discretely bring my own meal and utensils,
obviously letting the host know. This way, you get to hang out with friends and no stressful
rules for them.

nancy
 
Victor Sack <[email protected]> wrote in message news:1g6leyu.1aks1r0mxeg8cN%sackv@uni-
duesseldorf.de... [Snip-O'-Matic employed judiciously]
> Coq au Riesling
>
> 1 chicken (ideally cockerel) weighing 3.3 to 4.4 lb 2 cl (0.7 fl. oz) Cognac
> 1/4 l (1.1 cups) Riesling 50 g (1.8 oz) butter some oil 1 cup defatted chicken stock 1 bouquet
> garni 30 g (1.1 oz) shallots, finely chopped 1 dl (0.4 cups) crème fraîche 150 g (0.7 oz)
> champignons (button mushrooms), finely chopped Nutmeg marjoram parsley 1 garlic clove salt and
> pepper
>
> Joint the chicken and fry the pieces in a mix of butter and oil until golden brown, add the
> shallots and fry until golden, too. Skim off the fat, add Cognac and light it. Pour in the
> Riesling and the stock. Add the bouquet garni and cook for 30-40 minutes. Take out the chicken
> pieces and reduce the sauce to two-thirds. Add crème fraîche and heat through. Now strain the
> sauce, work in the butter, add the champignons and cook for 1 minute. Serve with noodles.

Are there any particular brands of cognac and Riesling you'd recommend? My poor selections of
Rieslings so far has left me a little gun-shy; I wasn't expecting so dry a wine as to pucker my
tastebuds all the way down to my toes. Also, why crème fraîche and not sour creme of yogurt?

The Ranger
 
The Ranger <[email protected]> wrote:

> Victor Sack <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Coq au Riesling
>
> Are there any particular brands of cognac and Riesling you'd recommend?

I would use any respectable VSOP or even 3-star Cognac and any Alsatian Riesling I wouldn't mind
drinking. Alsatian wines by Hugel or Trimbach are generally at least acceptable and often good to
very good and seem to be widely avaialble in the US.

> My poor selections of Rieslings so far has left me a little gun-shy; I wasn't expecting so dry a
> wine as to pucker my tastebuds all the way down to my toes.

Most Alsatian wines are generally as dry as they get, except for the much rarer _Vendange Tardive_
(many of 'em) and _sélection de grains nobles_ (all of 'em) wines.

> Also, why crème fraîche and not sour creme of yogurt?

Well, it's a French recipe and crème fraîche is just much more often used for cooking than sour
cream or yoghurt. Besides, crème fraîche is supposed to be less sour, theoretically at least, so
would serve better to modify the effects of what you perceive as too dry a wine.

Victor
 
in article [email protected], Higgins at
[email protected] wrote on 12/26/03 1:23 PM:

> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can make
> it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and
> falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason this
> is a bad idea??
>
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But, of
> course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>
> Thanks

Only your guest knows for sure what they will or will not partake of.

If you want to be sure to prepare a meal they will eat, I suggest you run down the menu with them
prior to the event, and ask if there are any pitfalls in it for them.

As for what to sub for the bacon in his portion....maybe a bissle pastrami!? It's got the components
of bacon and pancetta....fatty, smoky, peppery-spicy. In fact, it might work out great for the
entire dish. Just off the top of my head, that's what I came up with. Just make sure it is really
kosher pastrami. The stuff at the Carnegie or Katz's is great, but only Second Ave's is Kosher.

When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday morning, the way other moms made
bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad brought home. There are few foods that make me cry
for joy...pastrami and eggs is one of them.
 
"Sheryl Rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BC12568E.41922%[email protected]...
> in article [email protected], Higgins at [email protected] wrote on
> 12/26/03 1:23 PM:
>
> > I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can
> > make it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all
> > gray and falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any
> > reason this is a bad idea??
> >
> > Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But,
> > of course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
> > butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Only your guest knows for sure what they will or will not partake of.
>
> If you want to be sure to prepare a meal they will eat, I suggest you run down the menu with them
> prior to the event, and ask if there are any pitfalls in it for them.
>
> As for what to sub for the bacon in his portion....maybe a bissle
pastrami!?
> It's got the components of bacon and pancetta....fatty, smoky, peppery-spicy. In fact, it might
> work out great for the entire dish.
Just
> off the top of my head, that's what I came up with. Just make sure it is really kosher pastrami.
> The stuff at the Carnegie or Katz's is great, but only Second Ave's is Kosher.
>
> When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday
morning,
> the way other moms made bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad brought home. There are
> few foods that make me cry for joy...pastrami and eggs is one of them.
>

I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's restaurant in New London used to
feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this - reuben omelet. They also featured pitchers of
martinis, but that was for later in the day ;-P

Jack Colman
 
In article <Lm%[email protected]>, Margaret Suran <[email protected]> wrote:

> The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be butter, milk, cream or cheese
> as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or whipped cream with dessert, either.

I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in kosher cooking, but
apparently it's more complex than I thought. What is the justification for "no cream in the
coffee?" Just curious.

Mike Beede
 
Margaret Suran wrote in message ...
>
>
>Higgins wrote:
>> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a perfect dish because I can
>> make it a day or two in advance. But I think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray
>> and falling off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is there any reason
>> this is a bad idea??
>>
>> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat from a kosher butcher. But,
>> of course, a key element of coq au vin is bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting
>> butter and bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>>
>> Thanks
>
>It's not just meat from a kosher place. It is the whole dinner that would have to be
>carefully planned.
>
>There may not be anything dairy served, such as butter on the vegetables, or onions caramelized in
>butter. There may not be shrimps or other seafood as appetizers or hors d'oeuvres and as you know
>already, no bacon or other forbidden meat in the coq au vin.
>
>The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be butter, milk, cream or cheese
>as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or whipped cream with dessert, either.
>
>If you want your kosher friend to partake of the dinner, the best would be to have her tell you
>what you may and may not do and serve.
>
>I am Jewish, but I don't even try to invite my kosher friends to a meat meal in my house. A dairy
>meal, such as blitzes or fruit dumplings or other dishes like that, yes, but these are meals that
>are mainly served in summer.
>
>Good luck. I hope that you can work it out.
>

if someone was serious about keeping kosher, they wouldnt eat ANYTHING from a non-kosher kitchen.
whats the point of following the laws half-way?

--
Saerah

TANSTAAFL

"We're all one thing, Lieutenant. That's what I've come to realize. Like
cells in a body. 'Cept we can't see the body. The way fish can't see the
ocean. And so we envy each other. Hurt each other. Hate each other. How
silly is that? A heart cell hating a lung cell." - Cassie from THE THREE
 
Mike Beede wrote:

> I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in kosher cooking, but
> apparently it's more complex than I thought. What is the justification for "no cream in the
> coffee?" Just curious.

Meat and dairy can't be served at the same meal (which, I believe, is defined as the period between
the prayer over bread [HaMotzi], and the Grace after meals [Birkat HaMazon]). According to various
traditions, there is a waiting period to have dairy after a meat meal. Some observe 1 hour; some go
all the way up to 6.
 
Mike Beede wrote:

> I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in kosher cooking, but
> apparently it's more complex than I thought. What is the justification for "no cream in the
> coffee?" Just curious.

I wrote the following back in May when similar questions about keeping kosher came up.

Let me do a recap of what kosher means from a cooking perspective and a "I'm having guests; what do
I serve" perspective. (I am NOT touching the religious aspects.) There may be someone out there who
finds new information in this post.

First of all, we're talking about religious observance. That means that individual people and whole
groups of people will have different interpretations of what's right. Furthermore, all those people
will be sure that the next group over are wrong. So someone will disagree with the details that
follow. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to eat. I am trying to explain what's going on when you
see odd words on grocery items, words like "kosher-pareve."

The kosher laws fall into 4 broad categories:

1. kosher animals
2. kosher slaughter of animals
3. kosher combinations of foods
4. the dishes

5. Kosher animals include cattle, goats, sheep, chickens, turkey, salmon. Kosher animals
emphatically do NOT include pigs, rabbits, shrimp, lobsters, oysters, other shellfish, insects.
So anything made from a non-kosher animal is considered inappropriate to eat.

6. Whole books are written on the kosher slaughter of animals, but basically it means making sure
the animal is healthy before slaughter and cutting the throat with a sharp knife.

7. Meat products are not combined with milk products. They're not eaten at the same meal.
Individuals don't eat them within several hours of each other. They're not eaten off the same
plates or cooked in the same pots. So a hostess wouldn't serve a cheeseburger or a creamy
chicken soup. A guest who keeps kosher and has just arrived at someone's home might turn down an
offer of cookies and milk for a snack if he's just had meat for lunch. That doesn't mean the
cookies and milk aren't kosher, just that they're inappropriate for him at that moment. An apple
(neither meat nor milk) would be a better snack.

8. It isn't enough to avoid eating a non-kosher animal or a non-kosher combination. How separate is
separate, and how clean is clean? If the dishes had bacon on them in the morning, you wouldn't
just wash the plate and consider it O.K. for a kosher meal that afternoon. Keeping kosher
extends to keeping watch over the whole food production process.

It's that 4th consideration where people tend to disagree the most. Some people keep kosher at home,
but don't care too much about the dishes when they go out. So they'll eat a vegetarian meal in a
restaurant without worrying about whether the restaurant also serves non-kosher meat on those same
plates. Others would never eat at a non-kosher restaurant.

If you imagine people living out on a farm getting most of their food products locally and from
scratch, keeping kosher doesn't sound like a big deal. It means avoiding some recipes and eating 3
meals a day. Most people who have never kept kosher would find nothing too terribly weird about
visiting a kosher home and eating kosher meals for a while. Breakfast would still consist of eggs,
cereal, fruit, milk in coffee, butter on toast (a dairy meal). Lunch would still consist of salad or
a cheese sandwich in the summer (dairy) or maybe a beef soup in winter (meat). Dinner would be meat,
vegetables, potatoes (no butter or sour cream on the potatoes). None of that is shockingly unusual.

To answer your specific question about cream or milk in coffee. There's no problem with it first
thing in the morning since breakfast is presumably a dairy meal. There would be a problem with
milk in coffee after dinner if dinner is a meat meal. There's no reason why the whole dinner
couldn't be dairy (a nice pasta primavera with tomato and cheese sauce) in which case cream in
coffee would be fine.

The word "rationale" in your question is hard to address. As with anything in a religion, the
rationale is that these are the rules of this religion. You run into something similar when asking
what the rationale is for going to Mass or the prohibition against killing or stealing or the
rationale for giving to charity. Those are the rules though believers will show great variety in
exactly how they observe them.

--Lia
 
"Jack Schidt®" wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...

> I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's
restaurant
> in New London used to feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this - reuben omelet. They also
> featured pitchers of martinis, but that was for later in the day ;-P
>

If Goldie's were here in New Orleans they wouldn't be waiting until later in the day for the
martinis. One of the benefits of living in a 24 hour city.
<g>

-Mike
 
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