Climbing Trivia

Terry Morse said:

The question came up on a ride the other day: can one climb stairs on foot faster than on a
road bike?

The answer I found, after some googling, is that the winner is too close to call. The fastest time
to climb the Empire State Building to the 86th floor is just under 10 minutes, which is a climb
rate of 100 feet/minute.

Pantani's record climb of Mt. Ventoux was done in about 25 minutes, giving a climb rate of 95
feet/minute. Pretty close. Ventoux is windy and has a variable grade. A road with less wind and a
more consistent grade should produce an even higher climb rate.

Did Pantani's record climb come at the end of a 4-5 hour race? Wouldn't that tend to have an effect
on his uphill speed?

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Terry Morse said:

The question came up on a ride the other day: can one climb stairs on foot faster than on a
road bike?

The answer I found, after some googling, is that the winner is too close to call. The fastest time
to climb the Empire State Building to the 86th floor is just under 10 minutes, which is a climb
rate of 100 feet/minute.

Pantani's record climb of Mt. Ventoux was done in about 25 minutes, giving a climb rate of 95
feet/minute. Pretty close. Ventoux is windy and has a variable grade. A road with less wind and a
more consistent grade should produce an even higher climb rate.

I seem to recall a thread similar to this a year or two ago. The consensus was that the cyclist had
an advantage up to some particular gradient. Above that, the walker/runner had the advantage.

Art Harris

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In article <[email hidden]>, David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Phil Holman said:

Probably the runner improves relatively as the grade gets steeper.

Take this to the logical limit. You can climb a ladder, even with a bike on your shoulder. No way
could you ride it.

It's humiliating, but I have had the experience of runners being able to overtake me on a very
steep hill that I was climbing on my bike. The steeper it is, the more likely the runner/climber
will win.

_ There is a good place to test this for yourself. The Mount Washington Auto Road, there is both a
running race and a bike race up it. It has been quite some time since I did them, but I recall being
only slightly faster on the bike.

It's 8miles with an average grade of 12%. I'm pretty sure the running and biking records are
fairly close.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article said:

Up in New Hampshire, they have a hill climb event up Mt. Washington.

The first time this race was run, it was won by local hero John Allis, but his time was slower than
the record for a runner on the same course!

He was using a regular steel racing bike, with his normal gearing. Subsequently, folks have
been setting bikes up more specifically for this event, and the pedestrians are no longer in
the running.

_ I the '80s I did both events. My bike time was only slightly faster than the running one, but I
remember it being much more of a struggle.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The question came up on a ride the other day: can one climb stairs on foot faster than on a road
bike? The answer I found, after some googling, is that the winner is too close to call. The fastest
time to climb the Empire State Building to the 86th floor is just under 10 minutes, which is a
climb rate of 100 feet/minute. Pantani's record climb of Mt. Ventoux was done in about 25 minutes,
giving a climb rate of 95 feet/minute. Pretty close. Ventoux is windy and has a variable grade. A
road with less wind and a more consistent grade should produce an even higher climb rate.

Not really a fair comaparison since one climb took 2.5 times longer than the other one. Someone who
is going all out will pace themselves to give the maximum effort for the amount of time they expect
to be working. So it would be fairer to compare the ESB climb to a shorter bike climb.
-------------
Alex

dvt said:

Terry Morse said:

The question came up on a ride the other day: can one climb stairs on foot faster than on a
road bike?

The answer I found, after some googling, is that the winner is too close to call. The fastest
time to climb the Empire State Building to the 86th floor is just under 10 minutes, which is a
climb rate of 100 feet/minute.

Pantani's record climb of Mt. Ventoux was done in about 25 minutes, giving a climb rate of 95
feet/minute. Pretty close. Ventoux is windy and has a variable grade. A road with less wind and a
more consistent grade should produce an even higher climb rate.

Did Pantani's record climb come at the end of a 4-5 hour race? Wouldn't that tend to have an
effect on his uphill speed?

Let's not forget the fact that Pantani was juiced. That would certainly tend to have an effect on
his uphill speed.

Carl Fogel said:

The posts on this have been quite interesting.

Whichever way it works out, however, I cheer myself up by remembering that we win hands-down on
the descent without even pedalling.

Not if the runner was also a BASE jumper....

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - alanhoyle.comalanhoyle.comOpen ↗ "I don't want the world, I just want your
half." -TMBG Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Carl Fogel said:

Whichever way it works out, however, I cheer myself up by remembering that we win hands-down on
the descent without even pedalling.

For the same reason, touring on skis beats snowshoes for the same reason. A snowshoer can climb at a
steeper angle, but we skiers whiz by them on the descent.

I couldn't find any data on fastest climbing rates on skis, but I've heard some folks can climb at
50 ft/min. I'm pretty happy to average 30-35, according to my gps.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

Terry Morse said:

David L. Johnson said:

It's humiliating, but I have had the experience of runners being able to overtake me on a very
steep hill that I was climbing on my bike. The steeper it is, the more likely the runner/climber
will win.

I this this is the case of a strong runner passing a less strong cyclist. On steep grades (and
thus low speeds), an equally fit runner and cyclist should be close. After all, excluding the
weight of the bike (which is pretty small as a percentage of the total mass), the runner and
cyclist are doing the same amount of work to get up the hill.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

What about the efficiency of the bicycle? Runners bear their own weight, requiring more fuel for
muscles that a cyclist doesn't use (nearly as much). A well-adapted cycling body is potentially more
efficient than a well-adapted runner's body.

Or am I woefully ignorant? I just know it's been a long time since a runner passed me on any slope,
road or trail. (When I want a long, steep climb, I get the mountain bike out. There are several
WAG'd 1+ mile 20%-ers around here.)

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Dave Kahn said:

Peter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<lGKPb.102473$nt4.320208@attbi_s51>...

Quoted message said:

Terry Morse said:

David L. Johnson wrote:

>It's humiliating, but I have had the experience of runners being able to overtake me on a very
>steep hill that I was climbing on my bike. The steeper it is, the more likely the runner/climber
>will win.

I this this is the case of a strong runner passing a less strong cyclist. On steep grades (and
thus low speeds), an equally fit runner and cyclist should be close. After all, excluding the
weight of the bike (which is pretty small as a percentage of the total mass)

Not necessarily. A podgy runner in a devil costume and carrying a trident can keep pace with the
strongest climbers of the Tour de France over some short steep sections.

So an out-of-shape guy can go faster in a short sprint than a great rider who has been riding for
hours that day, and likely for many previous days. Likewise, almost anybody could outrun the best
marathon runners, when the marathoner is maintaining his pace and the other guy is sprinting some
short distance. All this shows is that ordinary people can produce more power for short anerobic
efforts than great athletes can maintain for hours.

On the original question of the Empire State climb vs Mt Ventoux, I suspect more great athletes have
attempted Ventoux, but that the shorter time and lack of weight of even a light bike makes the climb
rate up the stairs faster, even if the stairclimber wasn't quite as fit as Pantani.

Dave Lehnen

James Scott said:

Terry Morse said:

7.6 miles, 12% grade. Based on the climbing rate of the best of the best cyclists, I'm going to
guess the best overall time is right around 50 minutes. Am I close?

tinmtn.orgindex.cfmOpen ↗

Did you peek? :-)

No, even though it seems uncanny. I used the Pantani climb rate of 95 ft/minute to get 50.7 minutes
for the Mt. Washington climb.

$300 to enter the race? Ouch!
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Terry Morse

BJames Scott said:

Terry Morse said:

7.6 miles, 12% grade. Based on the climbing rate of the best of the best cyclists, I'm going to
guess the best overall time is right around 50 minutes. Am I close?

tinmtn.orgindex.cfmOpen ↗

Did you peek? :-)

No, even though it seems uncanny. I used the Pantani climb rate of 95 ft/minute to get 50.7 minutes
for the Mt. Washington climb.

$300 to enter the race? Ouch!
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗ [/B]

It would be interesting to come up with a climbing rate vs grade curve for the top cyclists and compare that to a similar curve for runners. That would definitely show the crossover point and my guess is somewhere around 13 - 15%.

Using your 95 feet per minute number comes up quite a bit too fast for Mt. Diablo :
3050 feet vertical, 10.8 miles 5.4% avg grade
Best time for the Diablo Challenge (no pro riders though) in the last 4 years is 46 minutes and change vs your predicted 32.

I've run up the 75 flights of the "Library Tower" in downtown LA. The folks who did really well
weigh about 135 pounds -- I weigh about 178 pounds. So I would imagine that a very small runner
would be able to outrun a biker, unless the biker were also quite small and had a very light bike.

I've also ridden up very steep hills on both a 24" and a 20" unicycle -- the 24" has 175mm cranks.
(I.e., the unicycles have 24 and 20 inch gearing, respectively.) Since riding a unicycle is already
based on decent balance, going slow is not the major problem. Since a unicycle can weigh less than a
bike, I think that it is conceivable that on a steep enough grade, a unicycle could beat both a
runner and a biker. The grade would have to be approximately constant, though, because the unicycle
quickly loses to a bike where it isn't so steep.

Terry Morse said:

The question came up on a ride the other day: can one climb stairs on foot faster than on a
road bike?

The answer I found, after some googling, is that the winner is too close to call. The fastest time
to climb the Empire State Building to the 86th floor is just under 10 minutes, which is a climb
rate of 100 feet/minute.

Pantani's record climb of Mt. Ventoux was done in about 25 minutes, giving a climb rate of 95
feet/minute. Pretty close. Ventoux is windy and has a variable grade. A road with less wind and a
more consistent grade should produce an even higher climb rate.

Quoted message said:

I've also ridden up very steep hills on both a 24" and a 20" unicycle -- the 24" has 175mm cranks.
(I.e., the unicycles have 24 and 20 inch gearing, respectively.) Since riding a unicycle is
already based on decent balance, going slow is not the major problem. Since a unicycle can weigh
less than a bike, I think that it is conceivable that on a steep enough grade, a unicycle could
beat both a runner and a biker. The grade would have to be approximately constant, though, because
the unicycle quickly loses to a bike where it isn't so steep.

When the grade gets steep enough, a bicycle _becomes_ a unicycle!

Sheldon "Never Understood Cyclists Who _Seek_Out_ Climbs" Brown +-------------------------------------------------------
+
| I am too much of a skeptic to deny the possibility | of anything. --T.H. Huxley |
+-------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

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In article <[email hidden]>, David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Phil Holman said:

Probably the runner improves relatively as the grade gets steeper.

Take this to the logical limit. You can climb a ladder, even with a bike on your shoulder. No way
could you ride it.

It's humiliating, but I have had the experience of runners being able to overtake me on a very
steep hill that I was climbing on my bike. The steeper it is, the more likely the runner/climber
will win.

_ There is a good place to test this for yourself. The Mount Washington Auto Road, there is both a
running race and a bike race up it. It has been quite some time since I did them, but I recall
being only slightly faster on the bike.

It's 8miles with an average grade of 12%. I'm pretty sure the running and biking records are
fairly close.

_ Booker C. Bense

Dear Booker,

Here's a recent list of times for runners and riders on Mt. Washington:

mt-washington.comautorecrd.htmlOpen ↗

The bicycles are noticeably faster, but things might well change on steeper climbs or if there's a
difference in the caliber of the contestants.

That is, the oddball race might attract the best riders (who routinely climb), but not the best
runners (who often don't climb).

I see no signs of the unbelievable Mexican runners who deflated the egos of Colorado's high-
altitude mountain-pass racers some years ago. They came from the Sierra Madre, lied about their
ages because they were afraid of being refused entry, started off on sandals made from old tires to
meet race requirements, and even took them off to run bare-foot with enormous leads in the
Leadville 100-mile race:

cozine.com00060296.htmOpen ↗

" . . . last year's first-place finisher, 55-year-old Victoriano Churro, a Tarahumara Indian from
northwestern Mexico. Fearing he'd be considered too old to participate, Churro initially lied about
his age, claiming to be 38. The amazing thing is, he looked so good, no one even questioned him. He
completed the race in just over 20 hours."

"The modest, sedate Tarahumaras, two of whom finished second and fifth, made a memorable impression
with their loin cloths, tunic-style shirts, peaked caps, and sandals pieced together from discarded
tires scavenged from the Leadville landfill. The sandals qualified as distance footwear because the
tires still had some tread."

"The Tarahumaras' appearance at the Twin Lakes aid station prompted one volunteer to tell her young
son, 'Don't ever ask me for $150 running shoes again.'"

I like to imagine these guys coming up behind Lance on WalMart bikes with rusty chains.

Carl Fogel

Matt Locker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Phil:

I think the fact that there is the extra weight of the bike is implicit in the question "Can one
climb stairs on foot faster than on a road bike?"

Taken literally, one cannot ride a bicycle up the stairs. What we are comparing here is vertical
stair climbing rate with vertical climbing rate for a cyclist on the road.

Quoted message said:

Therefore that weight doesn't matter. You could say that the race up the Empire State Building
actually affects the runner's speed. It's not a straight run; every 50feet or so the runner needs
to make a right angle turn. I think what does matter is the grade. Think about it. Can you run as
fast as a bike on a flat road? No. Can you ride a bike up a 90" wall? No.

I already addressed most of this in my reply where I said I could climb a fairly steep grade on my
bicycle at a speed I could barely do running on the flat. Turning around requires a lot less energy
than lugging a 20lb bicycle up the climb.

Quoted message said:

Yet a person can climb a 90degree wall. Somewhere between those two angles is the crossover
point. Stairs are usually closer to a 35 degree angle which is still pretty close to unrideable.
At that angle I tend to believe that balance comes into play more than anything else. A person
can get a gear ratio to support the angle but can they ride a straight line for a long period at
close to 1mph. I would expect the crossover point to be somewhere around a grade of 15-18% for
the average person, and I'd expect it's a little higher if you were to compare an elite cyclist
to an elite runner.

The steeper the climb, the more it favors the runner where stairclimbing for the runner is probably
the most efficient(conversion to useful work). The cyclist is somewhat handicapped by the additional
weight of the bike but this is a classic optimization problem where aero drag, handling, gearing etc
for various grades and speeds all contibute to the max climbing rate. I speculate that the most
accurate answer would be to compare the same athlete, with an equal ability in cycling and running
(triathlete), and not an elite cyclist versus an elite runner.

Phil Holman

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Phil Holman
Taken literally, one cannot ride a bicycle up the stairs. What we are comparing here is vertical
stair climbing rate with vertical climbing rate for a cyclist on the road.

actually someone provided a link for the guy setting a new record biking up the Effiel Tower in 19 minutes about halving the previous record (which he also owned), so it's definitely possible.

DiabloScott said:

Terry Morse said:

James Scott said:

Terry Morse wrote:

> 7.6 miles, 12% grade. Based on the climbing rate of the best of the best cyclists, I'm
> going to guess the best overall time is right around 50 minutes. Am I close?

http://www.tinmtn-" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">tinmtn.orgwww.tinmtnOpen ↗
.org/hillclimb/results_03/index.cfm

Did you peek? :-)

No, even though it seems uncanny. I used the Pantani climb rate of 95 ft/minute to get 50.7
minutes for the Mt. Washington climb. $300 to enter the race? Ouch!
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

It would be interesting to come up with a climbing rate vs grade curve for the top cyclists and
compare that to a similar curve for runners. That would definitely show the crossover point and my
guess is somewhere around 13 - 15%.

Using your 95 feet per minute number comes up quite a bit too fast for
Mt. Diablo : 3050 feet vertical, 10.8 miles 5.4% avg grade Best time for the Diablo Challenge (no
pro riders though) in the last 4 years is 46 minutes and change vs your predicted 32.

Not a fair comparison since the Diablo Challenge from the south side includes the Rock City area
with no significant elevation gain (even a short descent). Application of the 95'/min. estimate
assumes that the whole course is sufficiently steep that almost all of the cyclist's energy is
working against gravity rather than wind resistance and other losses. It'd be interesting to see how
well it works on the Diablo course if only the portion from shortly before the junction to the
summit were included.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Peter

Not a fair comparison since the Diablo Challenge from the south side includes the Rock City area
with no significant elevation gain (even a short descent). Application of the 95'/min. estimate
assumes that the whole course is sufficiently steep that almost all of the cyclist's energy is
working against gravity rather than wind resistance and other losses. It'd be interesting to see how
well it works on the Diablo course if only the portion from shortly before the junction to the
summit were included.

True there are a few rolling sections in there but that would tend to make the Diablo course FASTER than predicted using the 95'/min estimate, no? In fact Diablo is quite a bit slower than you would predict from the "thumb rule of Ventoux" because it's less steep and therefore there's more distance to cover for an equivalent vertical climb. In est, even though it's a faster average speed it's a much slower vertical gain rate.

"Vertical feet per minute" is an interesting but rather misleading statistic and it's pure folly to pretend it's some kind of constant across various grades. It would seem much more meaningful to compare average speed vs grade because you could compare the whole range of speeds and gradients for different cyclists and different modes of transportation (bicycle, unicycle, tandem, runner, coyote, etc).

From:
http://www.bikediablo.com/question42001.html
4) What is the course record for road, mountain bike, tandem, & unicycle ?
The course record for a road bike was set by professional bicycle racer Mike Engleman in 1990 with a winning time of 45 minutes and 20 seconds. The second fastest time was set in 1991 by Mauricio Prado with a time of 46 minutes and 28 seconds. This is the fastest known time for a non-professional rider. The course records for mountain bikers and tandem bicyclists are not positive. We think that a mountain biker has finished in about 50 minutes and a tandem couple in about 53 minutes.
The course record for a unicyclist is 1 hour and 21 minutes. This record was set by Gary Kanuch in 2000. It is unlikely much time will be taken off this record without a larger wheel or a "gearing up" of the unicycle.

Terry Morse said:

Tricky, certainly, since stairs are very steep. I've noticed, however, that my climbing rate (in
vertical feet/minute) is pretty constant on grades between 7% and 15%. Steeper grades probably
wouldn't change the result much.

In my mountaineering days, we always estimated our progress in terms of vertical feet, not miles.
From walking moderately steep trails to the beginnings of technical climbing, the climbing rate
always seemed about the same, the mileage not an issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does this have to do with the fact that someone can fail to make it up a hill and still get off
the bike and push it the rest of the way to the top?

Quoted message said:

Um, I don't think so. Walking a bike up a hill can be done very slowly, 1 mph or even less. Trying
to ride that slowly would result in tipping over. Walking is a last ditch way to reduce the
climbing rate to a manageable level.

I once had a conversation with a Shimano engineer about MTB gearing. He said the original XTR group
had been given a 24/32 low because that was the lowest gear a racer would need. Lower than that was
nonproductive -- testing had shown it was faster to get off and walk/run, cyclocross style.

I too have been passed by runners on the steepest slopes -- those that are barely rideable. But
after reaching the summit, I quickly pass them and leave them far behind.

Matt O.