chain cleaning

Leo Lichtman said:

Yes, but don't you think it would be good to start a separate group for
this? And while we're at it, how about a separate group for riding on
sidewalk discussions.

And helment discussions. rec.bicycles.helmets would possibly get more
posts then this group.

Well they were similar bikes, with similar drivetrains.
It's like changing the oil in your car, changed on a regular basis
extends the life of the engine. Chain and drivetrain on a bike are the
same thing. IMHO.

Ken

Or how about rec.bicycles.hatelance

Ken

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rich said:

Leo Lichtman said:

Yes, but don't you think it would be good to start a separate group for
this? And while we're at it, how about a separate group for riding on
sidewalk discussions.

And helment discussions. rec.bicycles.helmets would possibly get more
posts then this group.

The other day I was pondering on the possible usefulness
of a rec.bicycles.accessories. But ultimately helmets
and other accessories (e.g: fenders, racks, panniers,
light systems, kickstands, handlebar bags, multi-tools,
weatherproof cue-sheet holders, computers, HRMs, foldable
tires, eyewear, hydration systems, shoes, aerobars,
streamers, horns & bells, etc) pretty much /are/ misc.

I think the status quo is good enough, so far. Too much
newsgroup splintering leads to confusion and unneccessary
cross-posts.

Anyhow, in the Trikki Beltran thread the topic of lighting
systems came up. So I submitted a URL to some really good
information that provides an understanding of light & optics
in the context of bicycle night lighting. But I fear it's
been lost in the noise of the ongoing argument about h*lm*ts,
so here it is again:

The Light Measurement Handbook, by Alex Ryer

Available in PDF download at:
http://tinyurl.com/cay8b

(hardcopy version is also orderable from the same page.)

Learn all about lumens, lux, candelas, steradians and
scotopic vision. And especially the difference between
power input and (useful) light output -- IOW, why the
watts consumed by a light system doesn't necessarily
indicate its practicality.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- "The time has come," the walrus said,
"to speak of many things:
of ships and shoes and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings."

TomCAt said:

what product cleans the chain of a bicycle the easiest and without doing any
harm to the rest of the bicycle.

Buy one of those chain cleaning tools, and a gallon of kerosene.
Lather, rinse, repeat, until the solvent doesn't get dirty anymore.

Spray with motorcycle chain lubrication spray.

NEVER use a water based solvent on a chain.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

A worn chain will wear sprockets. The question of whether cleaning
extends chain life is controversial.

Having ridden extensively in PNW rainy conditions, I can
avow that a wet chain accumulates a lot of muck that makes
an horrible, gritty noise that sets one's teeth on edge as
the chain passes over derailleur jockeys, sprockets and
chainrings. And that's from grit on the exterior of the
chain, where it doesn't really cause wear, like when it gets
into the pin/roller interfaces. I suppose cleaning those
internal areas would require something like an ultrasonic
cleaner such as is used for cleaning surgical instruments.

I figure truly cleaning a chain requires both a chemical/
detergent action to loosen the foreign material, and then
agitation to shake it out of the chain. But when the chain
is immersed in a dirty cleaning liquid, how can one tell if
as much grit is being driven back in, as as being agitated out?

So I guess in the long run, drive train components are
ultimately disposable commodities, like shoes, light bulbs,
and paper towels.

But at least a superficially clean chain is quiet.

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article <[email hidden]>,

SMS said:

Buy one of those chain cleaning tools, and a gallon of kerosene.
Lather, rinse, repeat, until the solvent doesn't get dirty anymore.

Spray with motorcycle chain lubrication spray.

NEVER use a water based solvent on a chain.

All of the above is just so haywirely wrong.

1) if your going to use coal oil/kerosene, take the chain
right off the bike and soak it overnight. Then rinse
it under a hard stream of water and dry it in a warm place
where it'll dry as fast as possible and the chain gets
almost too hot (or a little hotter) to handle with fingers.
Apply your preferred lubrication while the chain is still warm.

1a) kerosene doesn't lather.

1b) one long (overnight) soaking in kerosene is sufficient,
no repetition should be necessary.

1c) kerosene is best used in areas where people don't have
to live with the aroma. That pretty much precludes
apartments.

1d) kerosene gets dirty, but the dirt (mostly) settles,
and cleaner kerosene can be decanted off the top.

2) spraying lube on a chain doesn't get the lube into the places
where it needs to be -- between pins & rollers.

3) water-based detergents /can/ work, but they have to
be really well rinsed, and the chain dried as in 1)
before subsequent lubrication.

If you really want to be Old School, lube the chain by immersing
it in a coffee can of hypoid 90 rear-end fluid, thinned by
simmering on a hot plate.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Tom Keats wrote:

<snip>

A lot of bad advice Tom.

The problem with soaking is that one of the most important parts of
cleaning the chain is to have the links in motion through the solvent,
and simple soaking doesn't accomplish this. Some people put the chain
into a plastic bottle with the solvent, and shake it, which is much
better than just soaking it, but it doesn't really ensure that all the
links are in motion. And shaking it, means that the dirt is all
suspended in the solvent, which means that you should do a couple of
iterations of shaking, with clean solvent.

The reason for changing the solvent until it runs clean, is that this is
your indictation that you've gotten as much of the dirt and grit out as
possible.

Those chain cleaning contraptions are messy, but their big advantages are:

1) they don't use much solvent (though several solvent changes are needed)
2) they keep the links in motioh through the solvent
3) they also brush away the surface dirt
4) they are much faster than removing the chain and soaking it, you can
clean a chain in five minutes
5) they get the chain cleaner.

As Sheldon Brown write: "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that
the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This
scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

The reason to lubricate your chain with chain lube, is because it gets
the lubricant into the internals of the links, between the pins and
rollers. Soaking in chain-saw oil also works, but it's not really
necessary, as a can of foaming chain lubricant will literally last you
several years.

As Sheldon Brown writes: "The problem with lubricating conventional
chains is that thick lubricants can't penetrate into the inaccessible
crannies where they are really needed, but thin lubricants don't last
long enough. There is a family of popular chain lubricants that deal
with this by mixing a thick oil-type lubricant with a volatile solvent.
The resulting mix is thin enough to get some penetration by capillary
action, then the solvent evaporates and leaves the thick oil behind.
This type of lube is easy to apply, and is very popular for that reason."

Do not use hyphoid 90 oil on a bicycle chain, it is too thick. If you
must use motor oil, use 30W oil. But chainsaw oil is easily available at
hardware stores, and is much preferred.

As Jobst writes: " Lubricating the chain with hot 90W gear lube works
but it is also efficient fly paper, collecting plenty of hardpack
between sprockets and on the outside of the chain. Motor oil is far
better, but motorcycle chain and chainsaw lubricants are better yet,
because they have volatile solvents that allow good penetration for
their relatively viscous lubricant."

As to the preferred solvent for cleaning a chain, "kerosene, commercial
solvent, or paint thinner" is the best option. It is very difficult to
get water-based solvents out of a chain, once you've forced them in by
soaking and/or shaking, and they are an unnecessary expense, given the
low cost of petroleum based solvents.

Too many people spend a lot of time and money on chain cleaning, and end
up with a chain that looks lovely on the outside, but that is neither
clean, nor lubricated, on the inside. There are even some people still
using paraffin, despite all the evidence of how ineffective it is.

Peter Cole said:

A worn chain will wear sprockets. The question of whether cleaning
extends chain life is controversial. Someone on the NG did an experiment
which seemed to indicate that cleaning chains did not make them last
longer. AFAIK, no one has repeated the experiment or proved the case for
chain cleaning. I don't bother anymore. I haven't noticed any drastic
changes.

I clean the chain "from time to time" solely to ensure smoother
shifting and reduce chain noise.

But I too have come to the conclusion that dirty chains aren't
really anything to obsess about. Chain to sprocket contact is
going to produce wear both whether clean or not.

So I run my chains/sprockets until they start slipping or become
too annoying to shift, then replace the chain and cogset as a
unit.

Probably every 2-3 years under my annual riding distances. The
rings seem to hold up longer (larger I guess, and usually better
metal/machining), and get replaced when even a new chain rides
too high up on the tooth, or shift problems persist.

For my principal ride (Trek 520), I'm still on my original small
ring, the second middle ring, and just replaced the large ring
to make it number four over a 12 year time period.

SMH

Chris Neary said:

I, for one, would like to delay the inevitable purchase of a $60 cassette,
$50 chainrings, and $20 chain as long as possible.

Agreed.

To Clean a Chain:
1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

Quoted message said:

But you forgot to address the questions of which brand of paint thinner
leaves the least residue, exactly how much paint thinner to put on the
rag, how big and what type of rag to use, how do you prevent lint from
the rag from getting on the chain, what brand and weight of oil to use,
whether it should be detergent or non-detergent oil, exactly how many
drops of oil I should put on the chain, what to do if some of the oil
gets on the frame, and doesn't the oil attract more dirt? These are
very important questions and they are very troubling to me. Please
discuss all of them in stupifying detail. Thank you.

Is it really better to stand there and be though a fool; Or open your
mouth and end the doubt?

--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

TomP said:

Quoted message said:

But you forgot to address the questions of which brand of paint thinner
leaves the least residue, exactly how much paint thinner to put on the
rag, how big and what type of rag to use, how do you prevent lint from
the rag from getting on the chain, what brand and weight of oil to use,
whether it should be detergent or non-detergent oil, exactly how many
drops of oil I should put on the chain, what to do if some of the oil
gets on the frame, and doesn't the oil attract more dirt? These are
very important questions and they are very troubling to me. Please
discuss all of them in stupifying detail. Thank you.

Is it really better to stand there and be though a fool; Or open your
mouth and end the doubt?

Actually, there is one real issue there, and it's the type of motor oil,
if you do use motor oil (which is not recommended in the first place).
Never use a multi-weight oil (5W30, 10W30, etc). Use a single weight oil
such as SAE 30. But chain saw oil or chain lubricant is the best choice.
The foaming chain lubricant is very effective, easy to apply, and very
economical.

TomP said:

Chris Neary said:

I, for one, would like to delay the inevitable purchase of a $60 cassette,
$50 chainrings, and $20 chain as long as possible.

Agreed.

To Clean a Chain:
1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

use acetone or lacquer thinner in a jar shake the chain for a minute
hang to dry or use a air hose to blow it dry. takes two minutes.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes

TomP said:

To Clean a Chain:
1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do
it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

Or, spray some degreaser on a rag (optional, BTW) and backpedal the chain
through it.

Lube.

Quoted message said:

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

I can clean my chain in < 30 seconds. (Granted, I usually dawdle and take a
full minute 🙂 )

Sorni

You forgot the magical chant, and the secret dance!

Ken M

Quoted message said:

To Clean a Chain:

Quoted message said:

1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do
it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

Or, spray some degreaser on a rag (optional, BTW) and backpedal the chain
through it.

Lube.

Quoted message said:

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

I can clean my chain in < 30 seconds. (Granted, I usually dawdle and take a
full minute 🙂 )

Do this little experiment:

Clean the chain on the bike as you described above:

Then clean the chain *off* the bike as described even further above.

I guarantee you'll be surprised by all the junk removed from the chain by
the second cleaning.

I'm guilty of doing a quicky chain cleaning on the bike, but when I really
want the chain clean there is no substitute for pulling it off the bike.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Steve knight said:

use acetone or lacquer thinner in a jar shake the chain for a minute
hang to dry or use a air hose to blow it dry. takes two minutes.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes

This is much better advice than using soapy water.

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

To Clean a Chain:

Quoted message said:

1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do
it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

Or, spray some degreaser on a rag (optional, BTW) and backpedal the chain
through it.

Lube.

Quoted message said:

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

I can clean my chain in < 30 seconds. (Granted, I usually dawdle and take a
full minute 🙂 )

Do this little experiment:

Clean the chain on the bike as you described above:

Then clean the chain *off* the bike as described even further above.

I guarantee you'll be surprised by all the junk removed from the chain by
the second cleaning.

Clean it ON the bike a second time and you'll be surprised at all the
junk removed by the second cleaning. Or clean it off the bike, then on
the bike, and be surprised by the junk in the second cleaning.

If you really must have your chain perfectly clean, you keep changing
the solvent (after cleaning the container) until it no longer has any junk.

You can change your car's oil the same way, by changing it several times
until you are sure there is no more junk anywhere in the engine. It
won't help the engine at all, but it'll make you feel better that the
inside of your engine is spotless.

TomP said:

Chris Neary said:

I, for one, would like to delay the inevitable purchase of a $60 cassette,
$50 chainrings, and $20 chain as long as possible.

Agreed.

To Clean a Chain:
1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

Cleaning a chain should be more of a process of preparing it for
inspection, 5 minutes is reasonable, 30 minutes isn't. Once it's clean
enough to inspect, measure for stretch, if it's more then 1/16th inch,
toss the chain and install a new one. Keep a box for dead chains, when
the box is full, take them to a metal recycler for recycling.....

W

TomP said:

Chris Neary said:

I, for one, would like to delay the inevitable purchase of a $60 cassette,
$50 chainrings, and $20 chain as long as possible.

Agreed.

To Clean a Chain:
1. remove chain from bike (best and only way if you're going to do it.)
2. clean chain with paint thinner
3. clean it again with hot soapy water.
4. rinse with clean water, the hotter the better.
5. dry and lube the chain.

I can clean my chain in < 30 minutes.

Way too long, due to all the unnecessary steps. Just clean it with
solvent, on the bike. It's better to clean it on the bike for the
reasons pointed out by Sheldon, and others.

Should only take ten minutes max, including set-up and clean-up.