CFRP drawbacks

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

To make a classic Raleigh Sports or similar machine today, (brazed
lugged steel, running gear of forged steel with 4-layer plate, etc)
would cost a fortune. Today's bikes are of radically more efficient
manufacture, cheaper, lighter generally.

To duplicate it, yes, but a bike of very similar function and comparable
durability could be produced for a very reasonable amount of money. It
would weigh quite a bit less, too. Raleigh made much of that stuff
in-house, which really couldn't be done now- but that's all right.

A Muzi said:

Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

Peter Cole said:

...
A teenager will do. Into whatever else you have in your garage, you
know, like shovels, lawnmowers, other bikes.

BICYCLES BELONG IN THE HOUSE, NOT THE GARAGE!!!

On this we can agree.

I've been trying to preach to the heathens at the Yahoo power-assist
group that they should keep their bikes inside and not out in the
rain. Opinions vary, sure, but c'mon!

Chalo

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of some
sort.

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of some
sort.

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of some
sort.

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Very well said!

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bottom line, cfrp has been used in aerospace for decades, with great
success. and denial makes for endless r.b.t time wasting.

Yeah, after all, you did relate that story about classified data on cfrp
helo rotors way before they existed, because you had CIA black ops
experience, right? In your "metarials lecture over 30 years ago", right?

DLFF.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anybody could tell me what is the main drawback of CFRP?
I am just steping into this field...

cT = 0.97

beamboy IQ = <90

Jambo' [email protected] said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anybody could tell me what is the main drawback of CFRP?
I am just steping into this field...

Quoted message said:

cT = 0.97

beamboy IQ = <90

I wonder when "Jambo" graduates middle school?

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

you're avoiding the definition of the impact you think is a problem. as
usual. spell it out. put numbers on it. i want impact energy and
contact area.

Great. Since you bleat on about how you are able to do "research", just
Google "damage tolerance CFRP"; follow the links, look at the proper
research papers, and try to learn something.

But since you're unable to grasp real scientific data from real scientific
research papers, instead preferring to read pop science slashdot type
sources, you'll continue to bleat "nyah nyah, you show me the data" rather
than try to educate yourself.

Because you don't need anything else besides your "mettalerugy" training
from "matreterials skool", don't you?

DLFF.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Peter Cole wrote:
<snip [censored]>

Quoted message said:

Just show me the deformed CFRP & we'll put this issue to rest.

you still don't get it. in structural applications, deformation /is/
failure.

let's be more specific, since /you/ failed to be: that's /plastic/
deformation. /elastic/ deformation is what precedes that - a point which
you seem anxious to avoid in previous posts.

Too late, toolboy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Very well said!

Except that it is not factualy correct.

#1: Trek is not a publicly-owned company. It never has been.

#2: Hysol EA9430 is not going to be found in any of the objects mentioned,
nor does it share many properties with the adhesives used, other than being
in the same generic category of "glue."

If you want to learn more about Hysol EA9430-
http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/HYSA9430-EN.PDF
http://www.oriontechnologies.net/Documents/bonding.pdf
http://65.98.28.10/structurals/assets/downloads/LoctiteStructuralAdhesives.pdf
http://www.lanl.gov/projects/ei/pdf_files/howardLA-14319-T.pdf

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chalo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way
that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being
knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a
James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of
some
sort.

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Very well said!

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of some
sort.

Chalo said:

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

"publicly owned"?? [censored] Burke sold Trek?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

Very well said!

Except that it is not factualy correct.

#1: Trek is not a publicly-owned company. It never has been.

Fair enough.

Quoted message said:

#2: Hysol EA9430 is not going to be found in any of the objects mentioned,
nor does it share many properties with the adhesives used, other than
being in the same generic category of "glue."

If you want to learn more about Hysol EA9430-
http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/HYSA9430-EN.PDF
http://www.oriontechnologies.net/Documents/bonding.pdf
http://65.98.28.10/structurals/assets/downloads/LoctiteStructuralAdhesives.pdf
http://www.lanl.gov/projects/ei/pdf_files/howardLA-14319-T.pdf

Good details for Hysol, but none of those describe what the life is of the
adhesive. No accelerated usage tests were outlined, either.

Composite adhesives do not last as long as metal does.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

And, as long as nobody knocked it over, it wouldn't crack.

Excuse me? As if steel and aluminum and titanium frames haven't had their
lives shortened due to being knocked over and severely dented?

They have?

--
Michael Press

Chalo said:

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

LOL. Because the hardware store epoxies you mixed and used by hand
in uncontrolled conditions 20 years ago have failed, and a variety of
unrelated cheap consumer plastics eventually do the same, modern CF bikes
(and other commercial epoxy constructions, like boats) will fall apart.
Right :-)

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Chalo said:

Quoted message said:

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

#1: Trek is not a publicly-owned company. It never has been.

I believe you, but that's very strange to me. It is owned by private
equity perhaps? Whatever it is, it's not the same sane and outwardly
ethical company that was making lugged steel bikes in Wisconsin not so
very long ago. It has undergone the same sort of transformation that
changed Cannondale from a profitable, modest, and innovative American
manufacturer into a grotesque marketing-driven mutant, and that _was_
the result of taking the company public.

Quoted message said:

#2: Hysol EA9430 is not going to be found in any of the objects mentioned,
nor does it share many properties with the adhesives used, other than being
in the same generic category of "glue."

None of the links you supplied elaborate on the lifespan of that epoxy
or its age-related property changes. Based on the information
available, the safe bet is that it becomes weak and brittle with age
just like every other epoxy (or for that matter, almost every other
plastic) most of us have seen. If you have information to the
contrary, I'd like to see that. But the datasheets you supplied,
unsurprisingly, don't mention the effects of aging on the material.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

If someone wanted to
make a 5 pound frame out of carbon fiber, they could do so in a way that
would surpass the lifespan of any similar-weight steel or titanium or
aluminum frame, probably by an order of magnitude, as far as being knocked
over, or center-punched by a car, or just about anything short of a James
Bond scenario where somebody uses some sort of epoxy-eating acid of some
sort.

The epoxy that holds the fibers together will not last long enough to
support your prediction. It's just not that stable. I have art
pieces I made in college fifteen to twenty years ago which were
assembled partly with epoxy, and they have fallen apart. Look at the
original plastic bits on the interior of a twenty- or thirty-year-old
car.

I bought a house that was half full of plain old household junk dating
back as far as the early '50s, and much of the '60s, '70s, and '80s
plastic stuff was brittle beyond usefulness.

The problem with making a durable object out of fiber and glue is that
half of it is just glue. It won't last because it can't last. That's
great for the manufacturers who can still expect to be in business
twenty years down the line, but it's bad for pretty much everybody
else.

Some of us rarely buy new bikes, because we simply don't have to.
Others like myself can find things in the used market (like 68cm
frames) that manufacturers no longer see fit to offer. Others ride
old used bikes because it's the best they can afford. Then there's
the fact that thousands and thousands of bikes leave the country every
year for other places partly because they are still useful even though
nobody here wants them anymore. Make them out of plastic, and all
that goes away; they're just so much plastic trash to pile into
landfills with bags, blister packs, broken appliances and everything
else. Even those bikes that were ridden twenty miles before being
garaged untouched for thirty years are now trash.

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

Chalo

sorry dude, basing engineering criticisms on your unfortunate
experiences of art class just don't hold. epoxys are used extensively
in engineering - bridges, a/c componentry and architecture for example.

Jambo said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole wrote:
<snip [censored]>

Quoted message said:

Just show me the deformed CFRP & we'll put this issue to rest.

you still don't get it. in structural applications, deformation /is/
failure.

What [censored]. Get that from your "metarials skool"? Tell us, beamboy:
what about elastic deformation? Bridges do this all the time, so do
buildings, and every other structure in existence. So buildings swaying in
the wind is failure - [censored], abandon your houses, everyone, chicken little
beamboy says they're failing...

you moron. read what i clarified.

Quoted message said:

[censored].

Quoted message said:

you therefore want to push deformation out along the stress/strain graph
as far as you can. that's what cfrp does.

So "deformation = plastic deformation=destruction". Another brilliant
re-definition of scientific terms from beamboy, the fraudulent [censored].

see above. moron.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and with better fatigue. and with lighter weight. for someone that
purports to be an "engineer", you have a pretty damned scary inability to
grasp basic fundamentals.

Yadda, yadda, yadda...

DLFF.

jim beam said:

epoxys are used extensively
in engineering - bridges, a/c componentry and architecture for example.

Yes, I understand that the failure of the epoxy coating on steel rods
was what caused pieces to fall out of the ceiling of that freeway
tunnel in Boston.

The examples I know of for epoxy used in civil engineering projects
are anti-corrosion coatings on structural elements-- not as the
structural elements themselves.

Chalo

A Muzi said:

Chalo said:

But in the meantime, that plastic trash has done its job parting fools
from their money, and that's all that counts to an outfit like the one
Trek has become in its publicly owned incarnation.

"publicly owned"?? [censored] Burke sold Trek?

Evidently not. But that makes me wonder why Trek went cancerous.

Chalo