UK and Europe · Public discussion

CCN presentation

Started by Just Zis Guy · · Last activity · 67 posts · 2,578 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
2 April 2004
Last activity
7 April 2004
Original author
Just Zis Guy
Posts
67
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,578
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 41–60 of 67
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Just zis Guy said:

    Jaws reads PDFs perfectly well. My bike mechanic is blind,
    I have seen him use this.

    Jaws is expensive. It requires an expensive operating
    system, which in turn requires expensive hardware. And -
    worst - it requires a high level of human expertise to deal
    with the viruses/etc. Many disabled people are not rich.
    Look up what the W stands for.

    Leaving aside the blind, PDF is painful for me and many
    others, simply by virtue of being inflexible.

    --
    Nick Kew

    Nick's manifesto: htmlhelp.com~nick

  2. On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Dearly beloved, what is 'a document'? Why does the precise
    rendition of it matter two hoots?

    Information plus presentation.

    And as much as you seem to think it doesn't matter,
    presentation/layout does.
    --
    "We take these risks, not to escape from life, but to
    prevent life escaping from us." bensales.combensales.com

  3. Tony Raven said:
    BenS said:

    On *As* Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:35:03 GMT, Simon *is* Brooke


    <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dearly beloved, what is 'a document'? Why does the
    precise rendition of it matter *illustrated* two hoots?

    Information *by* plus *my* presentation.

    And as much *reply* as you seem to think it doesn't
    matter, presentation/layout *here* does.

    Tony

    Nice.
    --
    "We take these risks, not to escape from life, but to
    prevent life escaping from us." bensales.combensales.com

  4. BenS said:

    On *As* Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:35:03 GMT, Simon *is* Brooke


    <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dearly beloved, what is 'a document'? Why does the
    precise rendition of it matter *illustrated* two hoots?

    Information *by* plus *my* presentation.

    And as much *reply* as you seem to think it doesn't
    matter, presentation/layout *here* does.

    Tony

  5. Nick Kew said:


    Jaws is expensive. It requires an expensive operating
    system, which in turn requires expensive hardware. And -
    worst - it requires a high level of human expertise to
    deal with the viruses/etc. Many disabled people are not
    rich. Look up what the W stands for.

    Meanwhile all the complainants studiously ignore the fact
    that voice output is available *free* as a standard feature
    of Adobe's *free* Acrobat 6 reader.

    All you gotta do is download the *free* latest version

    Tony

  6. Just zis Guy said:


    On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 00:11:21 +0000 (UTC), "davek"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Pdf provides a quick and easy way to electronically
    transmit the page in a format that accurately represents
    what the page will look like in the finished magazine.
    (Just export it from Quark as a pdf and attach it to an
    email - could hardly be easier.)

    They can also mark it up electronically and turn it
    round using software which costs a fraction of the price
    of the Quark and runs on much more modest hardware. My
    wife is a technical author; this feature is a core part
    of what she does.

    As a designer it is also essential to my work. I can send
    proofs of pages and layouts - mainly produced in Quark,
    Illustrator, Freehand and Photoshop to clients so they can
    approve projects. Projects can be pre-checked easily between
    designers, editors, authors, etc. Smaller projects can then
    be sent to printers without the need for supply of fonts and
    other associated graphics and all the problems/difficulties
    that can cause. (for larger ones I still send all files)

    Is there a viable alternative?

    John B

  7. On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:00:43 +0100, [email hidden] (Nick Kew)

    wrote in message : said:

    Jaws is expensive. It requires an expensive operating
    system, which in turn requires expensive hardware. And -
    worst - it requires a high level of human expertise to deal
    with the viruses/etc. Many disabled people are not rich.
    Look up what the W stands for.

    I know exactly what the W stands for. Of the three blind
    people I have counted as friends recently, all three used
    Jaws. One is a bike mechanic and as poor as a church mouse.
    One was a piano tuner with a disabled wife and used to get
    relief parcels from church mice. And one is a careers
    adviser at a University.

    Quoted message said:

    Leaving aside the blind, PDF is painful for me and many
    others, simply by virtue of being inflexible.

    Except that it isn't. It may not do what you want it to
    do, but it does precisely what I and plenty of others
    want it to do.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  8. Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile all the complainants studiously ignore the fact
    that voice


    output is

    Quoted message said:

    available *free* as a standard feature of Adobe's *free*
    Acrobat 6 reader.

    That's mad, Ted.

  9. On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 16:18:01 +0100, "Tony Raven"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile all the complainants studiously ignore the fact
    that voice output is available *free* as a standard feature
    of Adobe's *free* Acrobat 6 reader. All you gotta do is
    download the *free* latest version

    How much is that, Tony?

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  10. In "]news:[email hidden],
    Tony Raven <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:
    Nick Kew said:


    Jaws is expensive. It requires an expensive operating
    system, which in turn requires expensive hardware. And -
    worst - it requires a high level of human expertise to
    deal with the viruses/etc. Many disabled people are not
    rich. Look up what the W stands for.

    Meanwhile all the complainants studiously ignore the fact
    that voice output is available *free* as a standard
    feature of Adobe's *free* Acrobat 6 reader.

    All you gotta do is download the *free* latest version


    Which uses only 41MB of memory before you've even opened a
    document. Amazing.

    A

  11. On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 16:20:27 +0100, JohnB <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Is there a viable alternative [to PDF]?

    Doubtless several, but none as convenient or cost-effective.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  12. On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 19:06:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All you gotta do is download the *free* latest version


    Which uses only 41MB of memory before you've even opened a
    document.

    Leaving only 983MB to cope with the rest...

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  13. In "]news:[email hidden],
    Just zis Guy, you know? <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 19:06:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All you gotta do is download the *free* latest version


    Which uses only 41MB of memory before you've even opened
    a document.

    Leaving only 983MB to cope with the rest...

    I wish. Just seems a tad bloated compared to the last
    version. Of course I work with multiple GB datasets anyway,
    so even that would be full.

  14. On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 20:30:59 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > All you gotta do is download the *free* latest version
    Which uses only 41MB of memory before you've even opened
    a document.


    Leaving only 983MB to cope with the rest...


    I wish. Just seems a tad bloated compared to the last
    version. Of course I work with multiple GB datasets anyway,
    so even that would be full.

    Undoubtedly is bigger - partly due to features like the one
    under discussion, of course. The PDF on my site was intended
    to be distilled as Acrobat 3.0 compatible, but it's possible
    that setting has been lost at some point. I will dig out an
    old copy and ifnd out if it works with older versions.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  15. Just zis Guy said:

    On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 16:18:01 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
    family.com> wrote in message <[email hidden]-
    berlin.de>:

    Quoted message said:

    Meanwhile all the complainants studiously ignore the fact
    that voice output is available *free* as a standard
    feature of Adobe's *free* Acrobat 6 reader. All you gotta
    do is download the *free* latest version

    How much is that, Tony?

    *Free* quid to you Guy.

    Tony

  16. On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:00:03 +0100, "Tony Raven"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    *Free* quid to you Guy.

    Aha, SFP :-)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  17. Simon Brooke said:

    Obviously in the general case XML or SGML are better
    answers, but (except in very rare and exceptional
    circumstances) if PDF is the answer you asked the wrong
    question.

    Or the person reading the document has assumed that the
    question you are answering is different from the one
    they asked.

    In my case the question was: what is the quickest way of
    getting my Powerpoint presentation with the speaker's notes
    published on the web in a single file readable by as many
    people as possible.

    Answer: PDF. It took less than 30 seconds to publish the
    file, which I have since been able to put on my website and
    email to people.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  18. On 4/4/04 11:35 pm, in article
    [email hidden], "Simon Brooke"

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Ian

    Smith (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    Dearly beloved, what is 'a document'? Why does the
    precise rendition of it matter two hoots?

    For lots of reasons, many of which have been supplied to
    you as examples, all of which you have chosen, in your
    perverseness, to ignore.

    No-one but you is advocating using a medium unsuited to
    its role. You, with your insistence on using html
    regardless of how suited it is, are.

    I didn't (and don't) advocate HTML for any purpose
    unsuited to its role. In fact, these days I rarely use it.
    But it is at least a relatively compact structured
    document standard with tagged elements capable of being
    addressed and handled intelligently by a parser, and even
    people who don't deal with documents professionally are
    familiar with the browsers' ability to intelligently adapt
    (well constructed) HTML documents to the user's
    presentational preferences and needs.

    So my printers needs are ' I want this document to appear
    exactly as my client envisaged'. HTML doesn't do that. It
    encodes document content in a relatively poorly structured
    manner with hints as to how it should be presented.

    PDF encodes content *and presentation* in the one document.
    Very useful where presentation is important.

    HTML is useful for dynamic information transfer and thrives
    best where absolute precision in layout is not important,
    but information content is.

    PDF works best when thought of as 'camera ready electronic
    copy'. In Guy's case, he could put the pages up as HTML
    which would be a pain to download (as you'd need to capture
    every image as well), difficult to ensure that the notes
    appear on the same page as the slide, and generally a pain.
    PDF works much better for this purpose.

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously in the general case XML or SGML are better
    answers, but (except in very rare and exceptional
    circumstances) if PDF is the answer you asked the wrong
    question.

    That's very arrogant. If you are too small minded to
    envisage situations where PDF is an appropriate solution (ie
    the kind of situations many of us come across in the course
    of our work) then that is your problem, but don't foister
    your lack of vision on us.

    ..d

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Just zis Guy said:

    Answer: PDF. It took less than 30 seconds to publish the
    file, which I have since been able to put on my website
    and email to people.

    And the underlying difficulty is that it's *much* more
    difficult to read than an HTML page.

    I can read small print - in fact I can get three 80-column
    windows side- by-side on my 15 inch laptop screen. But when
    presented with a PDF, I always need to increase the text
    size to at least 1.5, sometimes 2, to be able to read it.
    And then the bloody document will no longer fit in the
    screen space available. At best it takes up so much screen
    space as to preclude having anything else usefully open.

    HTML is flexible. I can read HTML *without* having to jump
    through hoops.

    --
    Nick Kew

    Nick's manifesto: htmlhelp.com~nick

  20. Nick Kew said:
    Quoted message said:

    Answer: PDF. It took less than 30 seconds to publish the
    file, which I have since been able to put on my website
    and email to people.

    Quoted message said:

    And the underlying difficulty is that it's *much* more
    difficult to read than an HTML page.

    Yes, and I freely apologise for that. It's a quick hack,
    always intended solely as such. I am working on a much more
    thorough presentation of the data, but with 23 April
    looming time is if the essence. You may be confident that I
    am not unaware of the issues of those who have low / no
    vision. I have blind friends, a blind bike mechanic, I am
    partially sighted in one eye and the sight in the other eye
    is beginning to deteriorate. On the other hand most days
    still have the same old 24 hours in them, and I gotta sleep
    some times ;-)

    However, it did precisely what I wanted to do in precisely
    the way I wanted it done: the PDF is a single
    redistributable file, and the ability to send the thing
    around in a monolithic format was the primary concern in
    this case.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.