Carbon or not ?

vchu7105 said:

Heres a test, build bikes using the exact same design out of diffrent materials and test which one is best to ride.

That's an invalid test because it presumes that a given bike geometry, spec, and design is appropriate for any given material. Proper design considers material when specifying how the frame is built and properly uses that material.

vchu7105 said:

Trek 1000 Harsh, Tarmac Comp-Feel great after every ride.

So what's your point?

Let me use your logic on another example:

I have a green Volkswagen Golf and a red Ferrari. Since the red Ferrari drives so much faster, red cars have much higher performance than geen cars.

fauxpas said:

That's why I, for my next bike, will go carbon forks/stays... rolling comfort will be there, but the crank frame torsion will be good... Not the best of both worlds, but a good enough compromise for a fat [censored] like me 😄

You don't have to compromise just 'coz you're a fat [censored]. In fact the more comforable the ride the longer you'll stay on the bike. I have steel, alu, titanium and carbon bikes. My Alu bikes are, by far, the most uncomforable... and the full carbon is a dream. I can ride it all day.

Geometry probably has a great deal to do with it but both my Alu bikes (one track style fixie and the other is a triathlon bike) have carbon forks and the ride is still VERY harsh compared with full carbon... as for weight the more you cycle the less a problem that will be.

gfp1931 said:

Hi,
How noticeable is the claimed comfort of a carbon frame over alloy ?.
Is the extra cost for carbon justified ?.
I would appreciate the views of anyone with experience of both.
Cycling holidays, Audax and leisure rides up to approx. 70 miles/day are my main activities.
Thanks.

The differences are least noticeable on a pool table smooth road. The differences start showing up as the road gets rougher and that is where carbon's shock & vibration ability starts to shine. But carbon fiber has become a generic word. Carbon fiber construction and material range from what is in sub $1k framesets, to pre-impregnated carbon framesets that can list for $5k. My last ride on my 2004 Trek Project One Madone 5.9, was 100 miles. The next day I removed every component off it and used them to build up my 2005 Fondriest TF1 (Top Carbon) frameset. The superiority of the Fondriest, in every way, was unreal. And this was an apples and apples comparison. I weigh less than 140lbs and ride both rough and smooth roads. As far as I am concerened, selecting the best frameset for yourself, even if price is no object, is very hard, unless you can compare bikes that are all outfitted tha same.

fauxpas said:

That's why I, for my next bike, will go carbon forks/stays... rolling comfort will be there, but the crank frame torsion will be good... Not the best of both worlds, but a good enough compromise for a fat [censored] like me 😄

Have a look at the Azzurri Uno Carbon. Similar spec to the Felt 75 but with a carbon frame, It's a little more $$$s but a friend who owns one loves it. BUT.... in the end it's what fits YOU the best and what make you feel good when your on the road.

gfp1931 said:

I should point out - I am in my seventies and comfort is what my old bones cry out for.

Try a suspension seatpost maybe? 😄

Is that really true? I mean the geometry definitely plays into it a brick of carbon versus a spring steel has different shock absorbant capacities. However, the material is more shock absorbant. It has more flex naturally. The frame geometry on a carbon bike is different to that of a steel bike for reasons of rigidity etc. However, the comfort is affected by the materials used. If you could get a bike with the exact same geometry in steel, aluminum, ti and carbon, you would feel a more forgiving ride (at least for your butt).

You raise the good point that Geometry is a key factor, but don't rule out carbon as a material. I have a full carbon bike and I can say I have no idea what people mean when they talk about road chatter etc. anymore. Doesn't enter my vocabulary. Maybe it is the geometry, maybe it's because with carbon I get that type of geometry. Either way, call it an apple bike or a banana bike, I know which one is more comfortable. :-) At the end of the day I've never ridden a bike I didn't like!

Carbon frames are reputedly more comfortable than aluminium, but there are some other key factors which haven't really been discussed.

-A more upright position with a shorter top-tube and taller head tube (Giant OCR) will give a more comfortable ride.
-the correct fit in the first place will save you alot of trouble
-full carbon bars and stem (some are quite well priced, not the aluminium wrapped ones) will save your upper body a bit.
-A good carbon seat post or good suspension seat post(such as cane-creek thudbuster or rockshox road) will save your rear end.
-tyre pressure can be perhaps the one greatest factor in comfort, run a lower tyres pressure and get a softer ride.
-tyre composition will also affect ride

These factors can be just as important as frame. Also, Azzuri, Pro-Lite, Vincolo and Inexa are all the same brand. They use a cheap, generic carbon frame which is so badly designed and flexy, that it shifts by itself when any power is put through. While you may not be doing any sprints or crits, uphills could cause this frame to be a problem.

If people want comfort, why not buy a comfort bike? Or a hybrid?

The tiny bit of comfort offered on a road bike is miniscule compared to that of a stock mountain bike or hybrid with suspension seatpost...

[quote="fauxpas"]If people want comfort, why not buy a comfort bike? Or a hybrid?

I was thinking of fitting an armchair and a set of cleats for the bottom of my slippers!

::dom:: said:

In fact the more comforable the ride the longer you'll stay on the bike.

Well with me, comfort aint an issue... not longterm comfort anyway, as boredom strikes me by the 2 hour mark...

I love riding but I love lots of other stuff too, so I'me keeping my rides around 60min.

Maybe in the future the distance bug may bite, but for the moment, I'll be aiming at some crits for fun this year...

bobbyOCR said:

These factors can be just as important as frame. Also, Azzuri, Pro-Lite, Vincolo and Inexa are all the same brand. They use a cheap, generic carbon frame which is so badly designed and flexy, that it shifts by itself when any power is put through. While you may not be doing any sprints or crits, uphills could cause this frame to be a problem.

I aggree these brands use the sam,e designed frames for thier ranges, but do you have any decent experience to support that the frames are badly designed they flex enough to shift under power?

The azzurri link before is for one of thier new mono bikes. Yes same factory and likely to be used by other people. But unless you have ridden said bikes don't bag them for being mass produced and multi marketed.

fauxpas said:

Well with me, comfort aint an issue... not longterm comfort anyway, as boredom strikes me by the 2 hour mark...

I love riding but I love lots of other stuff too, so I'me keeping my rides around 60min.

Maybe in the future the distance bug may bite, but for the moment, I'll be aiming at some crits for fun this year...

You got it right... have fun!
😄 😄 😄

Phill P said:

I aggree these brands use the sam,e designed frames for thier ranges, but do you have any decent experience to support that the frames are badly designed they flex enough to shift under power?

The azzurri link before is for one of thier new mono bikes. Yes same factory and likely to be used by other people. But unless you have ridden said bikes don't bag them for being mass produced and multi marketed.

Yes I have experience. Their new monocoque frames do not look too bad. A noticable improvement. Still not really up to a standard where they surpass a well made, well designed aluminium bike. A person whom I race with owns a Pro-Lite. Racing in criteriums, they not only had to forfeit one in the series, they went on to crash while sprinting out of a corner, causing the chain to jump from the front chainring as they moved out of the saddle. The derailleur adjustment was checked and confirmed to be fine, also the cranks were the ultra stiff Ultegra hollowtech IIs.
Their new frames may indeed be stiffer, but many of the joints and important parts (seat-tube, head-tube, etc) are still aluminium with a carbon wrap. If buying carbon, buy a good quality pre-preg researched frame like a Giant, Trek, Orbea, Wilier, Viner, or many otherss, Avanti are making a good value one.

gfp1931 said:

Hi,
How noticeable is the claimed comfort of a carbon frame over alloy ?.
Is the extra cost for carbon justified ?.
I would appreciate the views of anyone with experience of both.
Cycling holidays, Audax and leisure rides up to approx. 70 miles/day are my main activities.
Thanks.

I have a custom built steel bike and is it a luxurious ride. I just picked up a carbon ORbea Orca and it is a very nice ride too.

Don't know your price range but have you considered the Cannondale six:13 ? It's aluminum and carbon lot of people like the ride. The design of the rear stays supposedly absorb a lot of the road vibration yet is' supposed to be a snappy fast ride. You might want to test ride one and test ride a carbon and a steel bike at the same time.

Otherwise a nice steel frame might be your ticket.

Hi,
Thanks for your comments. I have two or three models in mind and wondered how much carbon fibre would improve the comfort on a longer ride. I'm told it reduces the effect of bumpy rides etc. I just wondered if the extra cost was justified.

gfp1931 said:

Hi,
Thanks for your comments. I have two or three models in mind and wondered how much carbon fibre would improve the comfort on a longer ride. I'm told it reduces the effect of bumpy rides etc. I just wondered if the extra cost was justified.

That should thin out the arguments. Which carbon frames are you looking at? It depends which ones you are looking at when determining value.

bobbyOCR said:

Yes I have experience. Their new monocoque frames do not look too bad. A noticable improvement. Still not really up to a standard where they surpass a well made, well designed aluminium bike. A person whom I race with owns a Pro-Lite. Racing in criteriums, they not only had to forfeit one in the series, they went on to crash while sprinting out of a corner, causing the chain to jump from the front chainring as they moved out of the saddle. The derailleur adjustment was checked and confirmed to be fine, also the cranks were the ultra stiff Ultegra hollowtech IIs.
Their new frames may indeed be stiffer, but many of the joints and important parts (seat-tube, head-tube, etc) are still aluminium with a carbon wrap. If buying carbon, buy a good quality pre-preg researched frame like a Giant, Trek, Orbea, Wilier, Viner, or many otherss, Avanti are making a good value one.

OK bobby thats enough evidence for me to be put off them. I'm around the 210lb mark so really value a stiff strong bike. Will reconsider a custom steel bike rather than going "cheap" on a carbon frame. Sounds like the Azzurris and a like may be great bikes for people with less power. I've read a review on the Avanti CF bike and it seems a little less stiff than many on the market.

gfp1931 said:

Hi,
Thanks for your comments. I have two or three models in mind and wondered how much carbon fibre would improve the comfort on a longer ride. I'm told it reduces the effect of bumpy rides etc. I just wondered if the extra cost was justified.

Carbon CAN reduce the effect of bumpy roads, but different bikes behave different due to tube size and lay up (read above!).
A giant OCR carbon will ride much smoother than a TCR advanced, because they are designed for different markets (not that a TCR will completely batter you to pieces!)
Carbon frames tend to mute the constant road vibration because of the nature of the material, but the bumps are a different matter.

Constant reminder....ride before you buy.

Phill P said:

OK bobby thats enough evidence for me to be put off them. I'm around the 210lb mark so really value a stiff strong bike. Will reconsider a custom steel bike rather than going "cheap" on a carbon frame. Sounds like the Azzurris and a like may be great bikes for people with less power. I've read a review on the Avanti CF bike and it seems a little less stiff than many on the market.

I think I may have read that review too. At that price for a complete bike, you aren't really getting a quality frame. I'll take my ultra-stiff BMC anyday. The crosslock skeleton works wonders, as well as the firefork stays (no I am not on commission ffrom BMC). The frameset alone is $1500, which is about 60% of the avanti's full cost. That says something about research, development and materials.
Also, the person who caused the misshifts on the pro-lite weighs under 150lb.

Carbon can reduce the effects of bad roads, keyword being can. A high modulus carbon frame will be brittle and stiff, but will also transfer vibrations. If comfort is wanted, check your tyre pressure. depending on weight, under 100psi will usually do the trick.