Cadence?



D

David Hallswort

Guest
After reading ZB's thread, I have a few questions, if you good people will oblige me!

OK - cadence. Optimum = 180 per minute. Cadence is foot strikes, right? And 180 per minute - where
does that figure come from? Is it something to do with the optimum stride length? Which begs the
question, if you want to go faster, do you increase your rate of foot strikes, or do you lengthen
you stride?

Also, Donovan mentioned 'heavy pounding newbie steps'. I guess I'm a newbie, so I probably pound.
What should I be doing to avoid this? (I have femoral retroversion leading to flattened arches . I
have also been told that my heal strike is a little heavy.)

Thank you all, Dave
 
"David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> After reading ZB's thread, I have a few questions, if you good people will oblige me!
>
> OK - cadence. Optimum = 180 per minute. Cadence is foot strikes, right? And 180 per minute - where
> does that figure come from? Is it something to do with the optimum stride length?

Someone with a little time on his hands watched videos of ellite runners and counted.

> Which begs the question, if you want to go faster, do you increase your rate of foot strikes, or
> do you lengthen
you
> stride?

Actually, someone else--or the same person--has examined videos of sprinters, counted steps, and
surprise of surprises, they go above the magic
180. Go figure. But don't extrapolate the other way. Running 10+ minute miles is no excuse for
running less than 180 steps per minute.

> Also, Donovan mentioned 'heavy pounding newbie steps'. I guess I'm a newbie, so I probably pound.
> What should I be doing to avoid this? (I
have
> femoral retroversion leading to flattened arches . I have also been told that my heal strike is a
> little heavy.)

Okay, I'll drop the sarcasm and give you my personal experience. When I tried to achieve the
magical 180, I frustrated myself. When I concentrated on other things, like proper form, mainly
shorter steps that land under my center of gravity, I started approaching 180 naturally (this also
moved me away from heel landings). But still, slow as I am, I find it difficult to achieve the
magic 180 unless I am doing 9 minute miles or faster. During my slow long runs, I tend to hover in
the 170-176 range.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything.
Hold on to the good." (remove '701' when replying via e-mail)
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º
 
In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth wrote:
> After reading ZB's thread, I have a few questions, if you good people will oblige me!
>
> OK - cadence. Optimum = 180 per minute. Cadence is foot strikes, right? And 180 per minute - where
> does that figure come from?

That's the stride frequency used by elite athletes.

> Is it something to do with the optimum stride length? Which begs the question, if you want to go
> faster, do you increase your rate of foot strikes, or do you lengthen you stride?

You *usually* lengthen your stride, with two exceptions:
(1) you're going at a very easy pace (just faster than walking) in which case it's more economical
to stride a little slower (after all, you can do a gentle shuffle without "clomping".)
(2) you're already taking long strides and going about as fast as you can without increasing cadence
(this happens close to your 1 mile race pace)

For *most* distance runners, *most* training and race paces fall out of these classes.

But as Eduardo pointed out, sprinters take faster strides. Also, if you're running at a slow pace,
it doesn't hurt to use a lower stride frequency. Basically, this should be like a gentle shuffle and
not a heavy pounding stride.

Don't make a conscious effort to increase stride length as you speed up (this is likely to result in
overstriding)

> Also, Donovan mentioned 'heavy pounding newbie steps'. I guess I'm a newbie, so I probably pound.
> What should I be doing to avoid this? (I have

Try to maintain a reasonable stride rate. Eduardo's guidelines are good, so read his post.

What you don't want to do is take 160 steps/minute at 8:00 pace.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
"David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> offered:

>After reading ZB's thread, I have a few questions, if you good people will oblige me!
>
>OK - cadence. Optimum = 180 per minute. Cadence is foot strikes, right? And 180 per minute - where
>does that figure come from? Is it something to do with the optimum stride length? Which begs the
>question, if you want to go faster, do you increase your rate of foot strikes, or do you lengthen
>you stride?

Eduardo mentioned a videotaping-cadence-counter. That be me. He's correct. I have confirmed that as
racing speed increases, cadence ALWAYS increases (for elite runners). One can predict that the same
relationship most likely applies to plodders as well.

I think 180 s/m is optimum for *training* oneself to run efficiently. Many have bastardized that to
mean 180 s/m cadence for all speeds.
I.e., some mystical gold standard. Ain't so. Cadence of 90 revs (equiv. to 180 steps per min) on a
bicycle is a fairly common gold standard, since gearing can be adjusted to the conditions,
allowing 90 revs to be maintained. Seems 90 revs represents a frequency which provides good
match to a human's ability to develop power efficiently. So, if one wanted to run all day, mile
after mile, then 180 s/m might just be the gold standard. But without gears in our hip joints,
running faster requires higher revs (cadence). Speculating here - but, it seems to mesh with
what I've observed.

If one were to run at a speed somewhat slower than marathon pace (which means neither slow nor
fast), then trying to achieve 180 s/m CAN gradually improve efficiency. Result of improving
efficiency is a tendency to land more toward the midfoot, as opposed to the heel. The inevitable
comment, initially, went something like - "this feels like baby steps". That of course was the
result of comparing increased cadence to the former slower, inefficient cadence which felt normal.
Folks I've trained often started with a self-selected cadence in the 150-160 s/m range. There are
several ways to improve efficiency, but this method lends itself to quick improvement, since it can
be done on most daily runs and is not stressful, if not overdone.

I used to take trainees on runs and set the cadence at 180. Trainee would match my cadence. Then I'd
let them lead and attempt keeping the same cadence, then I would resume leading, and so on. A mile
or 2 each outing and the trainee would easily transition to a more efficient gait, and NOT regress
once training was completed.

Additionally I videotaped each trainee running at a decent pace before commencing training, then
somewhere in mid-training, and again when training had been completed. Trainee is always surprised,
and pleased at the form change.

>
>Also, Donovan mentioned 'heavy pounding newbie steps'. I guess I'm a newbie, so I probably pound.
>What should I be doing to avoid this?

The above. Once you've learned to maintain an efficient cadence at a moderate speed, you will have
learned what it feels like to run efficiently at any speed. Meaning - if your pace is subsequently
increased to 10k or 5k race-pace, the cadence you freely select will be appropriate for that speed,
since you now know which efficient cadence/stride length combination is correct for you. I.e., your
body will have developed the ability to select what's correct for you without the need for conscious
monitoring of cadence.

One more thing. For any individual, stride rate and stride length are inextricably linked at race
paces from the marathon and shorter distances. For open class athletes, every 5% increase in stride
length is accompanied by a 1% increase of cadence. Older runners, such as I, realise a 1% cadence
increase for as little as a 2% (or so) stride length increase. Age has a profound effect on stride
length, BUT NOT on stride rate. Most older folks lose very little in stride rate whilst the stride
length continues to drop faster than grammas'... never mind.

Sorry about the length of this, and HIH,

-- Denny_A
 
In article <[email protected]>, Eduardo Suastegui wrote:
> achieve the magic 180 unless I am doing 9 minute miles or faster. During my slow long runs, I tend
> to hover in the 170-176 range.

This actually sounds right to me, which is why I'm not a fan of being too rigid or fanatical
about this.

I also run at a very easy pace sometimes (about the same speed as your long runs), and there is no
way I'm doing 180 /min at that speed, but it's still a gentle (and somewhat leisurely) shuffle and
not a heavy clomp-clomp. I think the 170-6 range is fine.

What's more problematic is when people do 160/min at about 8:00 pace, especially annoying if they're
doing it on the treadmill next to mine, and weigh 180lb+

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
OK - so I tried it today - 5k at about 8min/mile. I never managed to hit 180, but I got 176 which is
near enough for a first attempt.

I have to say, it was remarkably effective. Not only did I feel less tired than normal, but my legs
were far more comfortable (probably because I counted my normal cadence and it was about 130....
hehe... newbie!). I was landing in the middle of my foot, and by looking at my shadow, could tell my
form was a lot better. My lower back felt better as well - I sometimes get twinges in it when I run
- probably because of my pounding stride before. I also felt my hips swinging a bit more (no jokes
please!!) - is that a good thing?

So - should I settle for 170-176 at that pace, or for the sake of good form and training, should I
try for 180?

Cheers again - this has been a really helpful thread!

Dave
 
"ZinfanDen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... <snip>
> I used to take trainees on runs and set the cadence at 180. Trainee would match my cadence. Then
> I'd let them lead and attempt keeping the same cadence, then I would resume leading, and so on. A
> mile or 2 each outing and the trainee would easily transition to a more efficient gait, and NOT
> regress once training was completed.
<snip>

See, this is where I disagree. Trying to force the magical 180 without making form adjustments and
improvements led me to injury--namely, hip bursitis. My bad form plus 180 steps per minutes equaled
stress on my hips. That's why I say, adjust and improve form first, and let the 180 come as it may.
Of course, everyone is different (different bodies, different exercise legacies, different
walking/running styles), so your trainees may have not been to far off from proper form, and
enforcing 180 steps per minute naturally led them to the small adjustments they needed to make. My
guess is that others with more severe form problems may not transition as well. Evidence: the many
posts in this newsgroups that go something like "I tried to do 180 steps/minute and I thought my
legs were going to come out of their sockets."

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything.
Hold on to the good." (remove '701' when replying via e-mail)
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º
 
"David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK - so I tried it today - 5k at about 8min/mile. I never managed to hit 180, but I got 176 which
> is near enough for a first attempt.
>
> I have to say, it was remarkably effective. Not only did I feel less
tired
> than normal, but my legs were far more comfortable (probably because I counted my normal cadence
> and it was about 130.... hehe... newbie!). I
was
> landing in the middle of my foot, and by looking at my shadow, could tell
my
> form was a lot better. My lower back felt better as well - I sometimes
get
> twinges in it when I run - probably because of my pounding stride before.
I
> also felt my hips swinging a bit more (no jokes please!!) - is that a good thing?
>
> So - should I settle for 170-176 at that pace, or for the sake of good
form
> and training, should I try for 180?

Sounds like you did well. Just out of curiosity, is 8 min/mile your slow or fast pace? If it's your
slow pace, the 176 steps you got lines up with my experience, and as you speed up (in interval
training for instance), the 180 steps will happen naturally. One word of caution: I'm glad you felt
better during the run, but monitor how your muscles feel and recover in the following days. In
particular, pay close attention to your calves and hips.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything.
Hold on to the good." (remove '701' when replying via e-mail)
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º
 
In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth wrote:
> OK - so I tried it today - 5k at about 8min/mile. I never managed to hit 180, but I got 176 which
> is near enough for a first attempt.
>
> I have to say, it was remarkably effective. Not only did I feel less tired than normal, but my
> legs were far more comfortable (probably because I counted my normal cadence and it was about
> 130.... hehe... newbie!). I wasS

One word -- OOUUUUUUUCCCHHHH !!!!!!!

> landing in the middle of my foot, and by looking at my shadow, could tell my form was a lot
> better. My lower back felt better as well - I sometimes get twinges in it when I run - probably
> because of my pounding stride before. I also felt my hips swinging a bit more (no jokes please!!)
> - is that a good thing?
>
> So - should I settle for 170-176 at that pace, or for the sake of good form and training, should I
> try for 180?

170-176 is a big jump to make compared to 130. Spend some time adapting before you push/force
it further. At least wait until you run at this cadence without conscious effort before pushing
it harder.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
In article <[email protected]>, Eduardo Suastegui wrote:
> "David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Sounds like you did well. Just out of curiosity, is 8 min/mile your slow or fast pace? If it's
> your slow pace, the 176 steps you got lines up with my experience, and as you speed up (in
> interval training for instance), the 180

If his running form is that bad, it's not his slow pace.

BTW, I think these paces are more absolute than relative -- for example, my stride rates at a given
pace are pretty close to yours, even though we don't race or train at the same speed.

I think it's got something to do with the gradual transition from walking to shuffling (relatively
high ground contact time, as opposed to time "in the air"), to running (relatively low ground
contact time, proportionately more time "in the air" on each stride). The primary efficiency issue
is being in the air too long in each stride (since energy lost is proportional to height which is
proportional to time squared). So when one does a slow shuffle-run at 10:00 pace, it's different to
a faster run at 8:00 because ground contact time is different. Now one might think that it's
possible to "shuffle" at 8:00 pace at a low stride frequency. The problem with this though is that
this shuffling action basically requires that at least one foot is on the ground most of the time,
which is almost impossible to do at the stride length that an 8:00 pace dictates. Except for
extremely tall runners (maybe 7'6" or so).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
> Sounds like you did well. Just out of curiosity, is 8 min/mile your slow
or
> fast pace?

I'm quite new to running, so this is my 'natural pace'. At the moment I'm just slowly clocking up
the miles and getting fit again. When I'm feeling good about my fitness, I'll start to see what my
fast pace is - i.e. I know I can 'sprint' fast, but running any distance quickly is new to me.

>If it's your slow pace, the 176 steps you got lines up with my experience, and as you speed up (in
>interval training for instance), the
180
> steps will happen naturally.

I tried to push 180 and it felt very weird. I think, like you say, leave it at 160-170 for now,
until I start training, instead of just getting my fitness up.

>One word of caution: I'm glad you felt better during the run, but monitor how your muscles feel and
>recover in the following days. In particular, pay close attention to your calves and
hips.

The inner aspect of my left calf is a little tender, but as I'm new, a little muscle soreness isn't
a big deal.

Thanks for the advice, Dave
 
Eduardo Suastegui wrote:
>
> "ZinfanDen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]... <snip>
> > I used to take trainees on runs and set the cadence at 180. Trainee would match my cadence. Then
> > I'd let them lead and attempt keeping the same cadence, then I would resume leading, and so on.
> > A mile or 2 each outing and the trainee would easily transition to a more efficient gait, and
> > NOT regress once training was completed.
> <snip>
>
> See, this is where I disagree. Trying to force the magical 180 without making form adjustments and
> improvements led me to injury--

While it doesn't work for everyone, notice in the posts where it *does* work, like mine, the 180
usually forced form changes - *vey* beneficial ones, I might add, which resulted in softer running.
IMHO, the form change is critical and the point. As you indicated, *you* - and others - consciously
changed your form, then you arrived at something closer to
180. Note that Denny's post indicates "CAN gradually" - note the *gradually*, which is something
runners don't seem to be very good at. So I thank Denny for this analysis and a refresher in
how it works. But it may not work for everyone.

FWIW, I would consider something near 180 (say, 170-190, others may disagree on the breadth of this)
to be within the proverbial "rounding error", "what works for you", etc. I was probably around 160
or slower before I changed, and have probably been closer to 170 when running flat trail at night,
with some icy patches, but relatively good footing (only time I counted in the past year). I haven't
counted (too focused on form and getting up hill aerobically) when doing hill work, but it wouldn't
surprise me if it's higher on the steeper (about 20%) sections - fast, tiny steps. I'm still working
on some other adjustments so haven't worried about cadence directly.

FWIW, in our cross-training this winter, we had adjacent treadmills at different slopes (-3%,0, 5,
10, 15%) as part of a circuit. It was surprising how often the people (male, female, short, tall,
fast, slow) were all in sync for cadence regardless of the slope they were running (background
pounding music may have had an effect). I was probably the least experienced of the group at that
time. That's what kinda reinforced some things in my mind about cadence. Granted, treadmills are
different than real running, but it was still interesting.

I've also tried maintaining the 180 cadence on my bike, although I have to use a lower gear than I
usually use on the flats, at least until I get up to speed. Also don't like the windchill factor on
the knees in winter. But I know when mt biking, especially on muddy hills, there's no way I would
even try to maintain 180. But the experimenting I've done biking on the flats on the way to work
helps me with my running cadence.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
 
"Eduardo Suastegui" <[email protected]> offered:

>"ZinfanDen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]... <snip>
>> I used to take trainees on runs and set the cadence at 180. Trainee would match my cadence. Then
>> I'd let them lead and attempt keeping the same cadence, then I would resume leading, and so on. A
>> mile or 2 each outing and the trainee would easily transition to a more efficient gait, and NOT
>> regress once training was completed.
><snip>
>
>See, this is where I disagree. Trying to force the magical 180 without making form adjustments and
>improvements led me to injury--namely, hip bursitis. My bad form plus 180 steps per minutes equaled
>stress on my hips.

In my post I also said: "There are several ways to improve efficiency, but this method lends itself
to quick improvement, since it can be done on most daily runs and is not stressful, *if not
overdone*." <asterisks added>

Just because training to run efficiently, using a 180 s/m cadence as method, didn't work for you
does not mean it won't work for others. Moderation in everything, including changing form.

>That's why I say, adjust and improve form first, and let the 180 come as it may. Of course,
>everyone is different (different bodies, different exercise legacies, different walking/running
>styles), so your trainees may have not been to far off from proper form, and enforcing 180 steps
>per minute naturally led them to the small adjustments they needed to make. My guess is

Almost everyone I've dealt with was stuck in the 150-160 steps per minute. It does not take a lot to
switch to 180 s/m. In David's case, at 130 s/m, pushing to 180 in one "swell foop" is difficult, but
by keeping sessions brief, it would still result in rapid improvement.

>that others with more severe form problems may not transition as well. Evidence: the many posts in
>this newsgroups that go something like "I tried to do 180 steps/minute and I thought my legs were
>going to come out of their sockets."

As Dot noted, many also do well. Maybe the result of not trying to do it all at once? I have never
had to go beyond two weeks with a trainee to make the change and NEVER had anyone experience an
injury. Videotaping the before and letting them see how they bound, and land with the toe of the
shoe pointed up at a 20-40 deg. angle, tends to get the point across. The final form video, compared
to the beginning form, is the ultimate convincer.

I trained my daughter-in-law. Her form change was rapid and permanent. She has since gone on to be a
decent marathon runner, and is now the co-director of a local, well-established marathon.

-- Denny_A
 
Thanks for the info Denny. So, should I be aiming to land on the middle of my foot?

Cheers, Dave
 
In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth wrote:
>> Sounds like you did well. Just out of curiosity, is 8 min/mile your slow
> or
>> fast pace?
>
> I'm quite new to running, so this is my 'natural pace'. At the moment I'm just slowly clocking up
> the miles and getting fit again. When I'm feeling good about my fitness, I'll start to see what my
> fast pace is - i.e. I know I can 'sprint' fast, but running any distance quickly is new to me.
>
>>If it's your slow pace, the 176 steps you got lines up with my experience, and as you speed up (in
>>interval training for instance), the
> 180
>> steps will happen naturally.
>
> I tried to push 180 and it felt very weird. I think, like you say, leave it

Focus on taking short steps instead of increasing the rate at which you step. The tempo will
naturally increase if you take small steps.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth wrote:
> Thanks for the info Denny. So, should I be aiming to land on the middle of my foot?

No. Take shorter, lighter strides. This will make your footstrike less heel-heavy. As you get fitter
and your calf muscles get stronger, the transition will occur naturally.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
Donovan Rebbechi <[email protected]> offered:

>In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth wrote:
>> Thanks for the info Denny. So, should I be aiming to land on the middle of my foot?
>
>No. Take shorter, lighter strides. This will make your footstrike less heel-heavy. As you get
>fitter and your calf muscles get stronger, the transition will occur naturally.
>
>Cheers,

Concur - except I would rephrase it as "take quicker strides whilst maintaining the same pace". Same
result, different perspective

-- Denny_A
 
In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth
<[email protected]> wrote:

>OK - cadence. Optimum = 180 per minute. Cadence is foot strikes, right? And 180 per minute - where
>does that figure come from? Is it something to do with the optimum stride length? Which begs the
>question, if you want to go faster, do you increase your rate of foot strikes, or do you lengthen
>you stride?

Denny has already provided some good answers.

Since I was originally a rather vocal naysayer regarding the 180, and these days am an advocate,
I'll toss in some more observations.

One is to second a point Denny made -- it is not that this is a magical number that must be
adhered to or the running gods will smite you. Taking your easy runs at a cadence _around_ 180 is
beneficial to your running form. Though I didn't believe in 180 when first mentioned, I did
experiment with stride rate. I was then averaging 140-150. Bringing it up to 150-160 immediately
made my knees and hips much happier. Going to 160-170 a year or so later helped me run more
frequently and farther. These days, if I run regularly (which I'm not doing right now) I can count
on right about 180 cadence. As it is, I'm closer to 170 (with attendant comments from my hip and
occasionally the lower back).

The emphasis on quicker strides certainly led me to a better form. Not so much potential for
overstride as I had to work on getting the foot back down _fast_.

As Dot mentioned, and I'll second, keeping a quicker stride rate is a big help for managing hills.
When I race, I try to take hills at even effort, and constant cadence. That means I slow down, but
maintain pretty much the same turnover. People around me often hold pace, and slow down their
turnover (leaping up the hill). Those folks are toasted by the time the course flattens back out
or goes downhill. Some slow down pace as I do, but also back off their cadence (bounding up the
hill again). They, too, don't fare well later on the hill.

Once you've established an efficient stride and stride rate at your slower paces, you speed up by
increasing both stride rate and stride length. Denny has posted some nice research links on this.
I've seen folks, however, who do their slower paces at a 150-ish cadence and then race pace at
180. In this case, there's no natural progression. They just have two totally unrelated running
styles. Their higher speed style is never practiced at all except in the limited speed work. This
winds up meaning that to a large degree, their base miles are wasted. If your base stride is quick
and efficient, then you migrate through your racing stride lengths and rates by simple
progression. Your marathon pace is just a little longer, just a little quicker. 10k is a bit
longer and a bit quicker than that. etc.

regarding the optimal stride rates and whether this is a matter of being elite, or tall, or
whatever. I run in an interesting part of the middle of the total pack, where I'm in the middle of
the pack for my age group, but towards the front of the pack for some of the other age groups.
Obviously we're all running about the same pace or the other people wouldn't be around
me. But one thing I've found is that the folks who are near the front of their age groups have
higher cadence than those (like me) near the middle of their group. Some of the folks in the
middle, like me, keep the quicker cadence. But there are quite a few who are young/strong
enough to be overpowering the stride enough to make up for their 150 (vs my 180) cadence. Get
to the front of the age group, and you have to be efficient (pretty much by definition -- if
you're inefficient, you'd be a lot faster if you were to become efficient; since we're talking
about the front of the pack, there isn't a whole lot faster that's possible). Apparently, the
lowered cadence is not efficient even for the F50 or M70 leaders, even though they run similar
times to the mid-pack 30 and 40-something men.

Height is really irrelevant to the question. I (1.85 meters, 6'1") was jogging along with a quick
cadence, and then realized that I was in synch with a youngster next to me -- 1 meter, 3'4".

Pace is also quite irrelevant. In coaching my beginning/returning runners group, I run with them
at a 170-180 cadence down to 15-ish minutes per mile. I do train a bit faster than that.

>Also, Donovan mentioned 'heavy pounding newbie steps'. I guess I'm a newbie, so I probably pound.
>What should I be doing to avoid this? (I have femoral retroversion leading to flattened arches . I
>have also been told that my heal strike is a little heavy.)

Touch down with your foot squarely under your hip. Increasing your cadence will make this
practically unavoidable. But if cadence is hard for you to fix, focus on the touch down. (Not
'landing', which gives a bad mental image.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
 
After being away from running for longer than I'd care to admit, I've gotten back into it during the
last two years. I've continued to make nice progress and have started looking for ways to keep
improving and just this week started thinking about stride rate, or cadence.

On Tuesday I counted mine for the first time and was at 154 per minute, right about where I've read
newbies fall. So, I thought I'd post to the group and look for some suggestions on how to make it
faster, shooting for the 180 range. Much to my delight I found the current thread.

Last night I tried increasing my stride rate and thought I'd share the experience. After warming up
at my usual pace for a mile or so, I did three sets of 1 minute with a quicker rate. I was able to
get to the 170-176 range.

I noticed several things. First was a sensation of speed with my feet and legs, but I wasn't really
going faster than my usual 9 minute easy pace. It was sort of the Fred Flinstone feeling where he
jumps in the air with his car and moves his legs, but doesn't really go anywhere :)

The second thing I noticed was that it felt like my legs were working a lot harder to maintain an
even mile pace. I could also tell that the workload was being distributed a little differently among
the leg muscles. My shins and inside portion of the quads felt like they got a good workout. For
others who have made the switch, how long should I expect it to take before I adapt to the quicker
stride rate and it feels good and natural?

Third, it was tough to resist the urge to naturally go faster. With a quicker rate, it was tough to
hold back. I naturally felt like picking up the speed.

Fourth, it felt like my stride length decreased to compensate for the increase in turnover.

Finally, the other thing that I noticed was that when I went back to my usual slower cadence, the
biggest sensation was one of trying to slam my heel into the ground. I could also feel the braking
sensation that a slower cadence gives you.

Any other tips on changing stride rate?

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First, thank you Robert for a very informative post (and website), and everyone else who has
contributed. In the last few days, my form has improved by leaps and bounds (boom tish....
unintentional running pun!) - and that's saying something because I don't even know what good
form really
is. All I can say is that running now feels more comfortable - especially afterwards when I'm not
hobbling around due to driving my heel into the asphalt a few thousand times.

Scott - your experience sounds very much like my own. My shins and inner calfs do feel like they've
had a good work out, but they're not hurting at all, which must be good. I figure in a few weeks the
tiredness in these muscles will go. Went for a run today - did about 5.5k, not far, and although the
170-180 cadence I was running made it feel like I was running really slowly, when I looked at my
times, I realised I had been running at a pace of about 7mins. So I guess quickening my cadence is
good all round for my running - thank you all for pointing me in the right direction!

Dave