Brief cycling item on "Today"



M

Mark McNeill

Guest
<URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
50214.ram>

"If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
cyclists more popular on the roads?"

Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice little
interview with Jon Snow.


--
Mark, UK.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his
hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
 
Mark McNeill wrote:
> <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
> 50214.ram>
>
> "If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
> cyclists more popular on the roads?"
>
> Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice little
> interview with Jon Snow.

Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
built for cars" propaganda. I emailed Today about this as soon as I
heard it, since it sounded like they were planning a follow-up.

At least it was Quentin Wilson for the motorists and not Clarkson -
Wilson was open minded enough to say he'd have a go at cycling.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email
 
On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
"Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mark McNeill wrote:
>> <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
>> 50214.ram>
>>
>> "If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
>> cyclists more popular on the roads?"
>>
>> Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice little
>> interview with Jon Snow.
>
> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax"
How many cyclists pay road tax? (raises hand).

>and "roads are built for cars" propaganda.
Roads are designed to allow many vehicle types to use them, including cars,
busses, lorries, and occasionally bicycles.

> I emailed Today about this as soon as I
> heard it, since it sounded like they were planning a follow-up.
>
> At least it was Quentin Wilson for the motorists and not Clarkson -
> Wilson was open minded enough to say he'd have a go at cycling.

Clarkson rides a bike every so often. As for top gear presenters, James May
rides a Brompton and thinks driving in town is stupid when you can use a
bike more efficiently, and driving is then unpleasant. His main reason for a
Brompton is that he can then put it in the back of his Bentley which is
garaged some distance away from where he lives.
Not sure about the hamster though..

...d
 
Jeremy Collins composed the following;:
> Mark McNeill wrote:
>> <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
>> 50214.ram>
>>
>> "If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
>> cyclists more popular on the roads?"
>>
>> Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice little
>> interview with Jon Snow.
>
> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
> built for cars" propaganda. I emailed Today about this as soon as I
> heard it, since it sounded like they were planning a follow-up.
>
> At least it was Quentin Wilson for the motorists and not Clarkson -
> Wilson was open minded enough to say he'd have a go at cycling.

I think that's the wrong way round .. A committed and 'real' [1] cyclist
ought to be shown how he 'manages' without a car. Show cycling in a
positive light, rather than the usual slightly jocular manner that many of
these shows end up doing simply 'cos they don't actually 'get' it.

Not that I'm suggesting real cyclists don't have cars, but many car drivers
simply don't believe they can manage without one. I know I can't,
certainly, without an absolute major change of lifestyle.


--
Paul ...
 
On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
"Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mark McNeill wrote:
>> <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
>> 50214.ram>
>>
>> "If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
>> cyclists more popular on the roads?"
>>
>> Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice little
>> interview with Jon Snow.
>
> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
> built for cars" propaganda. I emailed Today about this as soon as I
> heard it, since it sounded like they were planning a follow-up.
>
> At least it was Quentin Wilson for the motorists and not Clarkson -
> Wilson was open minded enough to say he'd have a go at cycling.

Why don't motorists like cyclists?

Because cyclists are smug when they arrive at work.
Envy
Classing all on the behaviour of a few.

How does Jon Snow view the cars?
with pity..

And Quentin Wilson accepted the challenge to get some training and get out
on a bike. One for our own Patrick Field to take on, maybe?

...d
 
Response to Paul - ***:
> A committed and 'real' [1] cyclist
> ought to be shown how he 'manages' without a car. Show cycling in a
> positive light, rather than the usual slightly jocular manner that many of
> these shows end up doing simply 'cos they don't actually 'get' it.

That was what I liked about the Jon Snow interview, which I can vaguely
paraphrase -

"I cycle because it makes me independent, and it's a predictable journey
time from my office to Parliament of nine minutes."
"How do you look on motorists?"
"With pity. I feel sorry for them."


--
Mark, UK.

"There is no prejudice so strong as that which arises from a
fancied exemption from all prejudice."
 
Mark McNeill composed the following;:
> Response to Paul - ***:
>> A committed and 'real' [1] cyclist
>> ought to be shown how he 'manages' without a car. Show cycling in a
>> positive light, rather than the usual slightly jocular manner that many
>> of these shows end up doing simply 'cos they don't actually 'get' it.
>
> That was what I liked about the Jon Snow interview, which I can vaguely
> paraphrase -
>
> "I cycle because it makes me independent, and it's a predictable journey
> time from my office to Parliament of nine minutes."
> "How do you look on motorists?"
> "With pity. I feel sorry for them."

I didn't see the piece, pretty obviously, so didn't realise something like
that had been included, which is nice.

--
Paul ...
www.4x4prejudice.org
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
 
David Martin wrote:
> On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
> "Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>>Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax"
>
> How many cyclists pay road tax? (raises hand).

You've been conned. There is no road tax.


--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
 
Paul - *** wrote:
> Jeremy Collins composed the following;:
>
>> Mark McNeill wrote:
>>
>>> <URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_cycling_200
>>>
>>> 50214.ram>
>>>
>>> "If cycling is the most economical form of transport, why aren't
>>> cyclists more popular on the roads?"
>>>
>>> Clichéd motorists' opinions, a positive quote from TRL, and a nice
>>> little
>>> interview with Jon Snow.
>>
>>
>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
>> built for cars" propaganda. I emailed Today about this as soon as I
>> heard it, since it sounded like they were planning a follow-up.
>>
>> At least it was Quentin Wilson for the motorists and not Clarkson -
>> Wilson was open minded enough to say he'd have a go at cycling.
>
>
> I think that's the wrong way round .. A committed and 'real' [1] cyclist
> ought to be shown how he 'manages' without a car. Show cycling in a
> positive light, rather than the usual slightly jocular manner that many
> of these shows end up doing simply 'cos they don't actually 'get' it.
>
> Not that I'm suggesting real cyclists don't have cars, but many car
> drivers simply don't believe they can manage without one. I know I
> can't, certainly, without an absolute major change of lifestyle.

Getting rid of the car was a liberating experience for me. I can (and
do) travel the length (almost, anyway) and breadth of the country
without once having to /worry/. No parking issues, no traffic problems,
no speed cameras, nothing to stop me having a few beers. And if there's
a "mechanical" and the train's late then I can wander into town and have
lunch while someone else sorts the problems out and pays the bills.
 
JLB wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>
>> On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
>> "Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax"
>>
>>
>> How many cyclists pay road tax? (raises hand).
>
>
> You've been conned. There is no road tax.

The vehicle excise duty commonly referred to as 'road tax' then, pedant.

...d
 
David Martin wrote:
> JLB wrote:
>
>> David Martin wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
>>> "Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax"
>>>
>>> How many cyclists pay road tax? (raises hand).
>>
>> You've been conned. There is no road tax.
>
> The vehicle excise duty commonly referred to as 'road tax' then, pedant.

Sometimes being a pedant is its own reward, but in this instance I claim
a (small) justification. I suspect that those who whine about cyclists
over this matter are reasoning:
# Use of the road is taxed (perhaps they think it pays for the road)
# So, fairness demands that all road-users pay.
# Cyclists don't
# IT'S NOT FAIR!
So it is worthwhile, whenever the point comes up, to emphasise that the
tax in question is not a general tax on road use and is not relevant to
bicycles or cyclists any more than it is relevant to somebody out with a
horse, a dog, a handcart, a pram, a wheelchair or indeed just walking.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
 
JLB wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>
>> JLB wrote:
>>
>>> David Martin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/2/05 9:59 am, in article [email protected],
>>>> "Jeremy Collins" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How many cyclists pay road tax? (raises hand).
>>>
>>>
>>> You've been conned. There is no road tax.
>>
>>
>> The vehicle excise duty commonly referred to as 'road tax' then, pedant.
>
>
> Sometimes being a pedant is its own reward, but in this instance I claim
> a (small) justification. I suspect that those who whine about cyclists
> over this matter are reasoning:
> # Use of the road is taxed (perhaps they think it pays for the road)
> # So, fairness demands that all road-users pay.
> # Cyclists don't
> # IT'S NOT FAIR!
> So it is worthwhile, whenever the point comes up, to emphasise that the
> tax in question is not a general tax on road use and is not relevant to
> bicycles or cyclists any more than it is relevant to somebody out with a
> horse, a dog, a handcart, a pram, a wheelchair or indeed just walking.

I concur with your intent. I usually respond that it is perfectly fair.
They don't have to pay 'road tax' on their bike either.. It's just that
they choose to leave it at home, in the same way I choose to leave my
car at home.

(By their reasoning, their passengers are also lazy good for nothing
sponging scum as they are using the road without paying 'road tax').

...d
 
Jeremy Collins wrote:
>
> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
> built for cars" propaganda.

Whereas metalled roads were built for cyclists (see work of CTC and
League of American Wheelmen in the c19th) and later usurped by cars.
Its is said that cars would not have been practical at the beginning
without the metalled roads campaigned for by cyclists.

Tony
 
David Martin wrote:
>
> (By their reasoning, their passengers are also lazy good for nothing
> sponging scum as they are using the road without paying 'road tax').
>

I've heard of this myth called passengers. I've heard they do exist but
mostly I only see three empty seats and a driver.

Tony
 
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:28:04 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
>> built for cars" propaganda.

>Whereas metalled roads were built for cyclists (see work of CTC and
>League of American Wheelmen in the c19th) and later usurped by cars.
>Its is said that cars would not have been practical at the beginning
>without the metalled roads campaigned for by cyclists.

That Winston Churchill was right.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:28:04 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote in message <[email protected]>:
>
>
>>>Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads are
>>>built for cars" propaganda.
>
>
>>Whereas metalled roads were built for cyclists (see work of CTC and
>>League of American Wheelmen in the c19th) and later usurped by cars.
>>Its is said that cars would not have been practical at the beginning
>>without the metalled roads campaigned for by cyclists.
>
>
> That Winston Churchill was right.
>

Whooosh! Your point is too subtle for me at this time of night

Tony
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:28:04 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
>> wrote in message <[email protected]>:
>>
>>
>>>> Clichéd is right - same old "cyclists don't pay road tax" and "roads
>>>> are
>>>> built for cars" propaganda.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Whereas metalled roads were built for cyclists (see work of CTC and
>>> League of American Wheelmen in the c19th) and later usurped by cars.
>>> Its is said that cars would not have been practical at the beginning
>>> without the metalled roads campaigned for by cyclists.
>>
>>
>>
>> That Winston Churchill was right.
>
>
> Whooosh! Your point is too subtle for me at this time of night

Churchill abolished road tax (the tax hypothecated to fund no more than
half or one quarter, depending on type of road, of new road build) with
the argument that if it was retained, motorists would come to expect
that they had higher priority on the road becasue they perceived that
they had paid for it.

He was right. Now even though they do not pay a hypothecated tax, they
perceive that they pay for it. And they are correct. But they neglect
the fact that everyone pays for the roads as a social good.

...d
 
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:25:31 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Your point is too subtle for me at this time of night

Sorry, I debated putting in the original quote from Churchill in
opposition to the original road tax (back when the Road Fund was in
existence, albeit only paying a part of the cost of new roads) for, as
David said, the reason that (more or less) "from here it would be but
a small step for them to assert ownership of the roads their taxes
have paid for." The fact that the tax is no longer hypothecated does
not seem to be any barrier to this claim.

Churchill called the hypothecated Road Tax "nonsense," "absurd," and
"an outrage upon the sovereignty of Parliament and upon common sense,"
and did away with it when he became Chancellor. I like this
information: when people tell me I pay no road tax I reply that, no,
nobody does, it was scrapped by Winston Churchill. So much better
than some obscure politician whose dates in office nobody knows.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>>
>> (By their reasoning, their passengers are also lazy good for nothing
>> sponging scum as they are using the road without paying 'road tax').
>>
>
> I've heard of this myth called passengers. I've heard they do exist
> but mostly I only see three empty seats and a driver.

I think you'll find there's actually at least four empty seats. At least if
the 800kg I borrow most often is anything to go by.

A
 
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:47:07 +0000 someone who may be "Just zis Guy,
you know?" <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Sorry, I debated putting in the original quote from Churchill in
>opposition to the original road tax (back when the Road Fund was in
>existence, albeit only paying a part of the cost of new roads)

It paid part of the cost of road improvements. Much of this was work
done on existing roads.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
 
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