Bravo Tyler!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Do people ever learn? The Intralipid debacle with PDM, The Festina Affair with not just Festina and TVM but a few other riders too, the admission from a most of ex-Telecom riders that they'd all used EPO during the mid to late 90's, "Oil for Drugs", Operation Puerto....

... it's hardly a short list and how has the sport profited from all of these and how will Lance going down make it any different? The short answer is: It hasn't and it won't. SSDD.

Doping doesn't seem to be on the decline and the only good thing about about all these recent "scandals" is that there's a large number of riders sitting on one doping offence and ready to lose their racing license for good the next time they get caught.

I wonder who be the next rung in the career level climbing ladder of Novitzky? I reckon David Beckham. There'll be some tie into an ex-cycling team doctor and his stays in Milan. Taking the Armstrong case would have made perfect sense for him when he worked with the IRS - but now he's with the FDA... Likewise if he'd been with the FDA several years ago it would have made perfect sense for him to take the Bonds case - but he was with the IRS. It'd be nice if the guy could actually figure out which department he's supposed to be working for 😉

Either we want a clean sport or not, swampy.
This is the crux of the situation.
For those who want a clean sport, it is important that riders and teams who cheat are exposed.

We were told in 1998 that Festina was the line in the sand. That Festina would usher in a new, more clean sport.
We had statements from Hein Verbruggen and the UCI state that doping would be eradicated. That the UCI would put in checks and balances to ensure that doping would never again
destroy the sport.

We have made progress, the drugs have gotten a lot better and harder to detect. If that ain't progess I don't know what progress is.

While I am glad to see Lance take the hit more cause he is kind of a jerk honestly from everyone I know who has either interviewed or knew him I am more concerned that it will hurt his efforts in fighting cancer.

On another note though I still say that EPO, GH or steroids are no miracle drug to make you good at these sports. Even in the interview Tyler said he had to be chosen to get the "white" lunch bag which means they thought he was worth it as you had the underlying talent to be great.

Whenever I hear people complaining about the drugs in a sport it is always from the perspective "Well if I had those drugs I could do it too."...Sorry NOT. If you had enough skill you would have been introduced to it and than given a choice, either take it and be part of the peloton or keep falling off the back.

If they are able to clean it up, BIG IF, they will loose viewers and that is the reason why baseball turned a blind eye. All the homeruns got people back in the stands.

-js

Here's a bit of perspective.

We spend all this money on chasing one guy on a bike, one guy with a baseball bat and a woman with a pair of running shoes and the US Supreme Court orders the release of 40,000 prisoners in California alone because we don't have enough money to keep them "adequately accomodated."

bbc.co.ukworld us canada 13508182Open ↗

Nice to see that since they're such a danger to themselves behind bars that they'd be better off being a menace and/or a danger to the general public again.

I was really hoping for more info into Tyler's doping, specifically how he got busted for the transfusion. Did he tranfuse another person's blood? Was it by accident? Did he get sick? etc... I think Tyler's story would be very interesting even without the Lance drama.

Overall, I thought there were no real surprises. Expected to hear something like what Tyler described. I did find the "white lunch bags" very interesting from a psychological perspective, and think that is a great way to make someone 'aspire' to dope. Whoever thought of that method was good.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Here's a bit of perspective.

We spend all this money on chasing one guy on a bike, one guy with a baseball bat and a woman with a pair of running shoes and the US Supreme Court orders the release of 40,000 prisoners in California alone because we don't have enough money to keep them "adequately accomodated."

bbc.co.ukworld us canada 13508182Open ↗

Nice to see that since they're such a danger to themselves behind bars that they'd be better off being a menace and/or a danger to the general public again.

Ha thats a quarter of the prison population!

California's 33 prisons have a total capacity of 100,000, but they hold 170,000 inmates.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jsirabella [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
On another note though I still say that EPO, GH or steroids are no miracle drug to make you good at these sports. Even in the interview Tyler said he had to be chosen to get the "white" lunch bag which means they thought he was worth it as you had the underlying talent to be great.

Whenever I hear people complaining about the drugs in a sport it is always from the perspective "Well if I had those drugs I could do it too."...Sorry NOT. If you had enough skill you would have been introduced to it and than given a choice, either take it and be part of the peloton or keep falling off the back.

If they are able to clean it up, BIG IF, they will loose viewers and that is the reason why baseball turned a blind eye. All the homeruns got people back in the stands.

-js

You lump EPO, GH and steroids into the same category. They are not. They work diffently. Before EPO, clean riders could compete with guys taking corticoids, steroids and GH, though they were still at a disadvantage. EPO changed the game. When something can give a 10 - 12% advantage, a clean rider cannot compete. Yes, of course, you have to have talent to be great, but EPO allowed average pros to be winning pros.

Clean riders generally don't take the position that "if I did drugs, I could win too." They would say that "If you beat me and you are a cheater, then you are taking something away from me that you have no right to take."

So, steroid-fuelled homeruns are okay if viewership is increased? Interesting....

"Some choices in life are extremely difficult. When a grand jury subpoenas you, you can lie to save your own skin and hope that you don't get charged with perjury later (federal offense). You can tell the truth, and as you put it, "rat out your friends". Your attitude exemplifies what is wrong with the culture of doping. It's got to stop somewhere. There's one guy at the top of this investigation, and his name is Lance Armstrong. Are you seriously suggesting that all these witnesses sacrifice themselves to protect one man and his tenuous legacy? Lance is the one person who profited the most, and at the expense of all his team mates and associates. Why shouldn't he bear the brunt of the punishment when the evidence finally catches up to him?"

Subpoenaed into a federal investigation and put under oath is one hell of lot different than showing you ass on national television and then reaching over and yanking you buddies pants down too. I have less of an issue with the former than the latter. But you are leaving out one very obvious option. You can always take take the fifth. Yep you may go to jail and if that is the case then to hell with LA for not stepping forward before his buddies got to jail trying to save his ass. If it is time for the sport to change do what Millar did " I couldn't live with the guilt". Personal vendetta like Lamond is [censored] or a profiteer like Tyler now being the self proclaimed man that is now concerned about the sport.....[censored]. Now he is a liar and a cheat and a guy the turns out his buddies to save his own neck and a profiteer on 60 mins. Nothing lower than Tyler so far.

Like I said I don;t fault any of them for doping and am certainly not going to join the lynch mob of under achievers that love tearing down people.

The villians in all of this is WADA and UCI. If you dont control it is the same legalizing.
Lance and the rest have been tested [B]500[/B] times and no positive or maybe one or two if the conspiracy theorists are right. You guys need to get you head out of the sand or further north it that is your issue. WADA and UCI should be on trial for not controlling this and condemned for ever saying they could. Lance doped, I got it. They all doped, I got it. At 19 you would have too so lets dispense with all the self righteous indignation. What I would not have done is got on TV and ratted out my buddy. I would have called my buddy and said "look I am going to jail if i protect you and you don't come forward and tell the truth. Maybe that went on with Hincappie and Lance, I dont't know. If it did then Lance is pond scum too for not saving his buddy from Jail to save his own skin. It cuts both was ways.

Please don;t tell me you don't understand this?

And SAPP, look, I dont know you and you dont know me so lets quit with the petty little insults. It screams "I am all oit of ideas". If you have a point make it, or take your little BRAVO and go home.

I wonder who be the next rung in the career level climbing ladder of Novitzky?

This could still get hung around Novitsky' neck. He does not have [censored] in Balco. He has a few convictions for lying and sent a trainer to prison for not talking and has spent millions. Yeah this is where I want my tax dollars spent. He has done nothing, nothing. Lance doped but no way Novitsky gets him in court, he will get him publicly. The scary thing with this type of public court of appeals is he will eventually get someone who was innocent.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by lance_armstrong [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Thank God! Now we're getting somewhere. This is like a dam breaking wide open. I hate to see these guys go down in flames, but whatever the outcome, the sport can only profit from these latest developments. Let's remember too, that most of the testimony given to the grand jury is still under wraps (Hincapie, Kristin Armstrong, other U.S. Postal riders). There's going to be a lot more coming out in the months ahead that most Lance defenders simply won't be able to rationalize away. It's easy to want to believe that Lance was the only rider at the pinnacle of the sport who rode clean those 7 years in a row (longer?). It just never made sense to me. I love the story of Daniel Webster selling his soul to the Devil. In cycling, when so many are caught doping, Lance selling his soul to the Devil is really the only plausible explanation I would have accepted. In the end, maybe that's what he really did. He sold his soul for glory, and now it's time to pay up. His biggest mistake, in my opinion, was being so greedy. It just called too much attention to himself.

I still hold out hope that he comes clean himself, before the evidence against him becomes insurmountable. As much as I dislike him as a person and sportsman, I would rather see him keep a bit of his dignity and go out with a bit of class.

I think it was pride. Had he stayed retired this never would have come up but the return to the sport and a bit to much "hey look at what a great guy I am trying to cure cancer " got him hung. People that put their hopes and dreams into a man have way to leaky a vessel. They need to aim a lot higher if they are looking for hope.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by sappie66 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You lump EPO, GH and steroids into the same category. They are not. They work diffently. Before EPO, clean riders could compete with guys taking corticoids, steroids and GH, though they were still at a disadvantage. EPO changed the game. When something can give a 10 - 12% advantage, a clean rider cannot compete. Yes, of course, you have to have talent to be great, but EPO allowed average pros to be winning pros.

Clean riders generally don't take the position that "if I did drugs, I could win too." They would say that "If you beat me and you are a cheater, then you are taking something away from me that you have no right to take."

So, steroid-fuelled homeruns are okay if viewership is increased? Interesting....

Yep, EPO is especially useful to endurance athletes, whereas steroids help build muscle, which would be useful to athletes where increased strength is the goal. EPO also changed the game because there was no test until 2000, and its lasting effect on the body weeks after it is administered and when it is undetectable, and as long as riders stay below their threshold limit of redblood cells. This is why a knowlegable dope doctor is necessary. Much of the benefits of using EPO are in its ability to help the athlete prepare for an event and recover. Its a "clean" form of blood doping without using a transfusion. The blood passport should curb the amount of blood doping in the peleton and probably has. Unfortunately the biological passport is pretty new (2008 or 2009 I think), so blood doping was rapant in the peleton especially before 2000 when the test to detect EPO was developed.

I think Armstrong will eventually admit to using ped's. His vehement denial of cheating and not having a failed test when evidence is piling up , whether it is hearsay or not, is losing its jedi mind trick abilities. Even the most devout Armstrong fans can't ignore this forever. Well, maybe the most ignorant can. Certainly some of the people who have opened up about Armstrong's ped use aren't the most moral individuals, but logical people can't write their statements off because they [the accusers] themselves cheated and denied it. Most people, even his fans, are rational, some more so than others. People who were once skeptical about Armstrong winning without drugs are probably now apt to believe he cheated after all of the allogations. From a PR standpoint his image will continue to degrade. Publicity will continue, and in his case any publicity is bad publicity. Those who care about Armstrong or represent him should seriously be pushing him to make a public statement admitting his ped use. Everybody makes a few poor decisions in his or her lifetime. The public understands this. Although he will never have the same luster that he once had with the public, he can still garner some respect by manning up to his poor decisions and actions. People detest cheats, but a cheat and a liar...

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by hpearson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
The villians in all of this is WADA and UCI. If you dont control it is the same legalizing. Lance and the rest have been tested [B]500[/B] times and no positive or maybe one or two if the conspiracy theorists are right. You guys need to get you head out of the sand or further north it that is your issue. WADA and UCI should be on trial for not controlling this and condemned for ever saying they could. Lance doped, I got it. They all doped, I got it. At 19 you would have too so lets dispense with all the self righteous indignation. What I would not have done is got on TV and ratted out my buddy. I would have called my buddy and said "look I am going to jail if i protect you and you don't come forward and tell the truth. Maybe that went on with Hincappie and Lance, I dont't know. If it did then Lance is pond scum too for not saving his buddy from Jail to save his own skin. It cuts both was ways.

Please don;t tell me you don't understand this?

And SAPP, look, I dont know you and you dont know me so lets quit with the petty little insults. It screams "I am all oit of ideas". If you have a point make it, or take your little BRAVO and go home.
[/QUOTE]
You should really get your facts straight -- WADA and UCI are not together on this issue. They never have been. The UCI is responsible for governing the sport. The UCI was the one that set the stupid 50% hc limit, which thereby legalized doping to that level. LA and Hein Verbruggen seemed to be very close buddies, but LA considered [censored] Pound to be a major troll. Pound always believed that LA was a doper.

Am I to understand that Tyler and GH should have risked going to jail (by taking the fifth) in the hopes that Lance would "do the right thing" to save them? Are you serious? Maybe that is standard practice amongst mobsters, but we are not dealing with such people, unless they fear Armstrong as if he were a mafia capo? Hmmm.... wait a minute....he seems to use similar tactics.... maybe you are right!!!

And you are under the assumption that LA could save them in that situation even if he wanted to (which, I am sure, he would not). I would think that no matter what LA says, it would not erase the fact that those guys would have obstructed a federal investigation, which would be the reason they would go to jail.

It is disingenuous of you to suggest that we quit with the "petty little insults" and then tell me that I am "all oit (sic) of ideas" and to "take my little BRAVO and go home". Disingenuous and rather hilarious too. Given your tone and demeanor towards those who disagree with you, it seems you have a remarkably thin skin. At any rate, I think this is just spirited discussion and it is fine with me, and I thank you for contributing to this thread. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/icon14.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by sappie66 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You lump EPO, GH and steroids into the same category. They are not. They work diffently. Before EPO, clean riders could compete with guys taking corticoids, steroids and GH, though they were still at a disadvantage. EPO changed the game. When something can give a 10 - 12% advantage, a clean rider cannot compete. Yes, of course, you have to have talent to be great, but EPO allowed average pros to be winning pros.

Clean riders generally don't take the position that "if I did drugs, I could win too." They would say that "If you beat me and you are a cheater, then you are taking something away from me that you have no right to take."

So, steroid-fuelled homeruns are okay if viewership is increased? Interesting....

I am not saying an increase in viewership justifies steroid-fuelled homeruns but what I am saying is that this is the reason UCI tuned a blind eye to the doping. To get the fans coming you need to keep raising the numbers. It is a business. Also take steroids and go and try and hit a pro-fastball with some prior baseball playing and see how easy it is. If you can get the bat around before the ball is in the catchers glove I be surprised.

Back to cycling, if you are in the peloton clean or not clean, you have to be talented to reach that point. What I am referring to is the image set by the media that the only reason these guys are this good is cause of the drugs. It would seem that giving me EPO would have gotten me on the US postal team, NOT. So painting this image is not fair to the riders. They give no reality of what these drugs really do and who they really help. Watch Bigger, Faster, Stronger and than they would understand. So I agree the clean rider in the peloton complaining has a reason to complain but this picture Leiberman painted in congress is complete garbage.

-js

i have to admire the lance fans who cry that this investigation is a waste of tax payer money. simple point; his entire empire was, according to the underlying charges, built upon a fraudulent use of tax payer money in the sponsorship of usps. i, as a tax paying citizen of this country, would like that money returned if he and johan and the medical staff used it in any way to operate their little pharmacy.

as for novitzky's inability to bring bonds in for the charges laid against him; you are tacitly supporting his trainer's criminal behaviour. when he was placed on the stand, he swore to "tell" the truth. his silence, his refusal to tell the truth landed him in jail for contempt of the court and its power to reveal the truth, which is not really a surprise. most of the comments which attack novitzky for this investigation are symptomatic of the u.s. right now. we seem to have veered away from a belief that success should be had through effort and a touch of luck and toward the attitude of succeed at any cost.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by slovakguy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

i have to admire the lance fans who cry that this investigation is a waste of tax payer money. simple point; his entire empire was, according to the underlying charges, built upon a fraudulent use of tax payer money in the sponsorship of usps. i, as a tax paying citizen of this country, would like that money returned if he and johan and the medical staff used it in any way to operate their little pharmacy.

as for novitzky's inability to bring bonds in for the charges laid against him; you are tacitly supporting his trainer's criminal behaviour. when he was placed on the stand, he swore to "tell" the truth. his silence, his refusal to tell the truth landed him in jail for contempt of the court and its power to reveal the truth, which is not really a surprise. most of the comments which attack novitzky for this investigation are symptomatic of the u.s. right now. we seem to have veered away from a belief that success should be had through effort and a touch of luck and toward the attitude of succeed at any cost.

I totally agree. The reason this investigation is so expensive is that the system of cheating used by USPS was/is so expensive because of the layers of doctors, management, riders, lawyers, etc., retained to support it. A lot of money was invested over the the past decade to assemble such a cycling powerhouse and to protect it from the kind of negative exposure it would receive from the media and the justice system. It's a cliche, but they've built a house of cards that they can't afford to let crash down. Too many people and too much money is at stake here.

The government can't just let it go because it's "too expensive" to investigate. What a ridiculous travesty of justice that would be. If it's expensive, it's because the system of cheating at USPS (and other teams) is so extensive and protected for so long that it's like pulling teeth trying to get to the bottom of it all. Shame on anyone who thinks justice should be served only if it's cheap and affordable.

The big advantage with EPO is recovery in training and competing. You can jump start your spring training and keep the legs going during competition much longer. Of course you turn into a blood sucking vampire after comsuming the contents of blood bags for all those years.🙂

hpearson, don't know if someone corrected you already but Hincapie didnt say he didn't say any of it.. He only said he never talked to 60 Minutes.. but 60 Minutes never even claimed they talked to him either.. they claim to have a soucre that that is what he told the grand jury.. I.e Lance I'm your friend, but I have family to support and I'm not going to jail for you.. You need to read these lawyer crafted staments very carefully.. what they say and don't say.. like the strange rebuff from the UCI.. "The UCI can only confirm that Lance Armstrong has never been notified of a positive test result by any anti-doping laboratory. " LMAO.. WTF.. lol..

so in 2003 Tyler came up to the front guys in Luz Ardiden and express anger for their unfairness for not waiting on Armstrong after his small fall, and now this... how loyal a friend...
people will eventually do what is more convenient to them and forget the rest of their entourage, sad fact of modern life,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vspa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

so in 2003 Tyler came up to the front guys in Luz Ardiden and express anger for their unfairness for not waiting on Armstrong after his small fall, and now this... how loyal a friend...
people will eventually do what is more convenient to them and forget the rest of their entourage, sad fact of modern life,

somewhat baffled here. lance was part of tyler's entourage? tyler forgot to be loyal to the end? but to the point--i have doubts as to how much friendship tyler still feels for armstrong. hamilton went to csc & phonak for career advancement and pay when he felt he was being held back under armstrong. oddly enough, it was with phonak and not bjarne riis' csc that he first felt the long arm of the wada.

something else to think about; lance & his lickspittles always apply the "he's doing this for money" attack on their credibility. what motivation does popovych or ekimov have for defending armstrong? continued employment and financial reward?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by sappie66 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You should really get your facts straight -- WADA and UCI are not together on this issue. They never have been. The UCI is responsible for governing the sport. The UCI was the one that set the stupid 50% hc limit, which thereby legalized doping to that level. LA and Hein Verbruggen seemed to be very close buddies, but LA considered [censored] Pound to be a major troll. Pound always believed that LA was a doper.

Am I to understand that Tyler and GH should have risked going to jail (by taking the fifth) in the hopes that Lance would "do the right thing" to save them? Are you serious? Maybe that is standard practice amongst mobsters, but we are not dealing with such people, unless they fear Armstrong as if he were a mafia capo? Hmmm.... wait a minute....he seems to use similar tactics.... maybe you are right!!!

And you are under the assumption that LA could save them in that situation even if he wanted to (which, I am sure, he would not). I would think that no matter what LA says, it would not erase the fact that those guys would have obstructed a federal investigation, which would be the reason they would go to jail.

It is disingenuous of you to suggest that we quit with the "petty little insults" and then tell me that I am "all oit (sic) of ideas" and to "take my little BRAVO and go home". Disingenuous and rather hilarious too. Given your tone and demeanor towards those who disagree with you, it seems you have a remarkably thin skin. At any rate, I think this is just spirited discussion and it is fine with me, and I thank you for contributing to this thread. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/icon14.gif[/IMG]

I got my facts straight, you are missing my point or maybe I have not made it very clear. My issue with WADA and UCI has nothing to do with Lance's situations it has to do with my disdain for the incompetence of WADA and UCI not being able to address doping in this sport and claiming they had. They are responsible for all these young men hanging themselves and for all the fallen glory and should be ashamed. I saw a video by the president of WADA last night stating they don't have their hands around this and it is easy to beat out tests! THANKYOU! Then you can hardly blame the riders! All it takes is one guy using EPO and the dominoes fall.

On your second point, again, I must of failed to make mine. Integrity is not employed based on the actions of others, it is a code of ethics you live by despite the actions of others! This I assume you understand. If you are called and put under oath and asked if you cheated on you taxes and then you are offered a deal if you rat out you buddy who cheated on his what would you do?

The proper thing to do is to plea the fifth regardless of what you buddy does. If you go to jail for not talking cause your buddy does not step forward then you should find a new buddy but you don't rat him out cause it is against YOUR code of ethics! You don't say "well if he is going to be unethical, I will too." That is not how it works. Playground rules are different.

You don't just have integrity when everyone else is playing fair. In fact the lack of fair play defines integrity! Granted, this uncommon integrity but never the less it is the gold standard. SO YES I AM SAYING THAT!!!! But further, I hold a man less in contempt for talking to federal investigators and declining to comment in public than one that appears on 60 Mins.

Let me say it again, If GH was going to jail for Lance and Lance did not stand up and say yeah I doped to get GH off the hook, then we are in a whole different level of pond scum!!! And yes Lance could help HC in that situation by coming clean. GH would not go to jail, rather be held in very high a regard as a man of integrity. Damn high in my book! Lance too for coming clean to save a friend

I don't really view Lance any different than other rider. I now he doped and I know he lied. I am a fan of all the other great riders that doped and lied but not because they doped and lied. By UCI/WADA not being able to eliminate it from the sport it became part of the sport. He is just the biggest name the sport has ever seen, maybe any sport has ever seen. Circumstances dictated much of his fame. Given a level playing field where every rider including Lance is clean does Lance win 7? I could make that argument. Hinault was the only one I can think of with similar intensity and I pick Lance over Hinault.

The question I have is for the people that hate Lance and Bravo Tyler. Ethically they are the same, until last week when TH set a new low. Is it envy or is that eventually America loves tearing down a winner.

Like I said you don't know me and I dont know you but love this topic and like stirring the pot to get people to comment!!! I supposed to be fun and a bit argumentative in my book! At least thats my flavor.

Oh and yes, I am a very rare a delicate flower!!!!