Best Climber

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kathrin
With Heras having left USPS to become the new leader of the Liberty Segurnos team, I guess we will see in next year's Tour de France what he really is, a GC guy or a climber.

You provide really interesting data, I think, though, that he only does so well in the GC of the Vuelta because the top GC riders usually don't start there. But we will see.

I didn't include it to prove that he is the best GC rider. I included it to prove that he is a better GC rider than he is a climber. Otherwise, he would have scored better in the Mountain category of the Vuelta. Instead, he scores better in the GC than he does in the mountains.

Also, I think you might be confused on Heras' contract. He will be there at the 2004 Tour de France to support Lance's 6th straight Tour win. His USPS contract expires after the 2004 season, not before.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by gntlmn
I didn't include it to prove that he is the best GC rider. I included it to prove that he is a better GC rider than he is a climber. Otherwise, he would have scored better in the Mountain category of the Vuelta. Instead, he scores better in the GC than he does in the mountains.

Also, I think you might be confused on Heras' contract. He will be there at the 2004 Tour de France to support Lance's 6th straight Tour win. His USPS contract expires after the 2004 season, not before.

No, Heras is indeed looking to leave USPS next year.. Check out www.cyclingnews.com or any other cycling news website for the latest.

I don't think you can compare who scores better in either the Mt. or GC category, to whether who is the better climber... Since Heras is going for the GC, he is not concerned with the Mt. points, so he wouldn't score well in that category... He doesn't care about the Mt. points.. He wants to win the race...

And yes Heras is a GC guy. Simply that his what he wants to try and do with his abilities... And his abilities are climbing... If this years Veulta would have had a flat time trial he would not have won... He makes all his time on the climbs and tries to hold on in the time trials..

What an exciting 2004 race this is shaping up to be!! With only one flat time trial the climbing GC guys will have a good shot at being on the podium. It will be interesting to see what Heras can do in the Tour... I got a feeling Ulrich, Armstrong, Beloki, Hamilton are just a bit nervous about this.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by pedalrun
No, Heras is indeed looking to leave USPS next year.. Check out www.cyclingnews.com or any other cycling news website for the latest.

I don't think you can compare who scores better in either the Mt. or GC category, to whether who is the better climber... Since Heras is going for the GC, he is not concerned with the Mt. points, so he wouldn't score well in that category... He doesn't care about the Mt. points.. He wants to win the race...

And yes Heras is a GC guy. Simply that his what he wants to try and do with his abilities... And his abilities are climbing... If this years Veulta would have had a flat time trial he would not have won... He makes all his time on the climbs and tries to hold on in the time trials..

What an exciting 2004 race this is shaping up to be!! With only one flat time trial the climbing GC guys will have a good shot at being on the podium. It will be interesting to see what Heras can do in the Tour... I got a feeling Ulrich, Armstrong, Beloki, Hamilton are just a bit nervous about this.

Good for Roberto! It'll be a nail biter next year for sure! The USP team has survived previous personnel changes without much problem but for the first time in years there appears to be an array of credible challengers for the TdF. It remains to be seen whether these farily new teams can get the sort of cohesive teamwork that the Posties have produced year after year... bring on July 2004! Early action in Belgium might decide the tour. Reminds me of the 5th win of Indurain...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by pedalrun
No, Heras is indeed looking to leave USPS next year.. Check out www.cyclingnews.com or any other cycling news website for the latest.

I don't think you can compare who scores better in either the Mt. or GC category, to whether who is the better climber... Since Heras is going for the GC, he is not concerned with the Mt. points, so he wouldn't score well in that category... He doesn't care about the Mt. points.. He wants to win the race...

And yes Heras is a GC guy. Simply that his what he wants to try and do with his abilities... And his abilities are climbing... If this years Veulta would have had a flat time trial he would not have won... He makes all his time on the climbs and tries to hold on in the time trials..

What an exciting 2004 race this is shaping up to be!! With only one flat time trial the climbing GC guys will have a good shot at being on the podium. It will be interesting to see what Heras can do in the Tour... I got a feeling Ulrich, Armstrong, Beloki, Hamilton are just a bit nervous about this.

I'm afraid you can compare Mtn and GC because I am refuting the claim that Heras is the best climber of all time. The first person I think of to refute this claim is Eddie Merckx who won both the GC and the King of the Mtn in the Tour de France not just once but twice in the same years. If Heras were the best climber of all time, he would have at least won the climbing awards. But he doesn't, and so he's not. Take your argument to Eddie Merckx and see if he agrees with you.

I stand corrected on Heras' departure, but I see that USPS has already found a replacement for him with a rider that got a 6th place finish in the 2002 Tour, Jose Azevedo. It will be interesting to see how Heras does in the tour. He is proven as a domestique in the TdF, but not as a contender.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by gntlmn
I'm afraid you can compare Mtn and GC because I am refuting the claim that Heras is the best climber of all time. The first person I think of to refute this claim is Eddie Merckx who won both the GC and the King of the Mtn in the Tour de France not just once but twice in the same years. If Heras were the best climber of all time, he would have at least won the climbing awards. But he doesn't, and so he's not. Take your argument to Eddie Merckx and see if he agrees with you.

I didn't say that Heras wasn't "looking to leave USPS". I said that his contract is not up until after 2004. I did a websearch on Heras before I posted yesterday, and I am leaving my statement as I posted it. You guys are all talk. The buzz is that Heras has a $750,000 buyout clause in his USPS contract. Technically, he can leave the team if he meets the buyout arrangement, but so far, all I see is talk. As the old saying goes, money talks and b#@@%&*t walks. I don't see any concrete plans to acquire Heras. Furthermore, USPS would have an additional $750,000 to play with in order to replace him if he leaves. That can buy some decent climbers. A team looking to acquire Heras would do so if they could win for sure, but there is no such assurance. This buyout clause is the big limiting factor because the acquirer might make USPS stronger, not weaker, by giving them all that money. That kind of defeats the purpose of acquiring Heras, doesn't it?

First... I never said Heras was the best climber of all time??
I think Van Impe would be one of the best of all time. (sp?) IMO I was simply saying Heras is much more of a climber than a time trialer and I think one of the best pure climbers at this time.

I think Eddie Merckx is one of the best riders of all time, if not the best.

Second... Heras is leaving USPS... http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/5306.0.html
There's a bunch of talk, because it's happening..

With Heras now on his own it will be very interesting to see just how he does.. See if he can dance away in the Mt.'s. Can't wait for the tour in 2004!!

I'm actually pulling for Tyler Hamilton, but I'd love to see a close race whom ever wins.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by pedalrun
First... I never said Heras was the best climber of all time??
I think Van Impe would be one of the best of all time. (sp?) IMO I was simply saying Heras is much more of a climber than a time trialer and I think one of the best pure climbers at this time.

I think Eddie Merckx is one of the best riders of all time, if not the best.

Second... Heras is leaving USPS... http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/5306.0.html
There's a bunch of talk, because it's happening..

With Heras now on his own it will be very interesting to see just how he does.. See if he can dance away in the Mt.'s. Can't wait for the tour in 2004!!

I'm actually pulling for Tyler Hamilton, but I'd love to see a close race whom ever wins.

Sorry! I must have posted my edit while you were replying to my post. Now I see that Heras is truly a defector from USPS.

Yeah. I like Hamilton's fighting spirit, but on the other hand, if a major crash happens, he seems to find his way into the middle of it.

I'll be glued to OLN in the 2004 Tour for sure. Hopefully, all major contenders will be in top form. This might be the best Tour in years.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by gntlmn
I'm afraid you can compare Mtn and GC because I am refuting the claim that Heras is the best climber of all time.

I don't think anyone on this thread said Heras is the best climber of all times. One can make a good case for him being among the best current climbers.

Aiming for the GC does not mean you are not a climber, in my opinion. Climbing is an ability, a talent, independent from what you choose to do with it, isn't it?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kathrin
I don't think anyone on this thread said Heras is the best climber of all times.

You implied this on your first question to me above where you say, "What about Roberto Heras?". This was in response to my discussion preceding this in which I talked about the best climber of all time, comparing Virenque with Van Impe and Bahamontes. Clearly, I was talking about the best climber of all time; Van Impe and Bahamontes have been retired for many years.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kathrin


Aiming for the GC does not mean you are not a climber, in my opinion. Climbing is an ability, a talent, independent from what you choose to do with it, isn't it?

It's easy to conceptualize this if you take it to an extreme. Consider that you are the best climber by a long shot from anyone who has ever ridden a bike on this planet. If you are that good, and also aiming for the GC as well, then it would be nothing to get the mountain climbing awards while you also get the GC.

This reminds me of an old man I met a while ago who said that he used to run track on his own many years ago overseas. He said he had the world record in the mile but hadn't officially sanctioned it in a meet. It was pretty hard to believe, actually. This is the argument. It's not a question of what you choose to do with your talents, but whether you really have them at all. That's the big question. And the way to really know this for sure is to prove it with results.

There is no doubt that Heras is among the best climbers now. But he is not clearly in a league of his own even among only the current riders. I'm not so sure that he's a better climber than Lance Armstrong, either.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by gntlmn
You implied this on your first question to me above where you say, "What about Roberto Heras?". This was in response to my discussion preceding this in which I talked about the best climber of all time, comparing Virenque with Van Impe and Bahamontes. Clearly, I was talking about the best climber of all time; Van Impe and Bahamontes have been retired for many years.

I guess I need to set a few things straight. This thread started with 2 questions, one about the best current climber, the other about the best climber ever. I thought you were talking about Van Impe and Bahamontes as best climbers ever (choices I agree upon) and Virenque as best current climber (a choice which might be debatable depending on one's opinion). My question about Heras did not imply anything except that I was interested in your opinion about him. That was all, ok?

As for your second reply, I agree with you that Armstrong might well be the best current climber after all. My bet for the 2004 Tour: If there won't be any crashes or other catastrophes Armstrong will win the GC and Heras the polka-dot jersey.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kathrin


As for your second reply, I agree with you that Armstrong might well be the best current climber after all. My bet for the 2004 Tour: If there won't be any crashes or other catastrophes Armstrong will win the GC and Heras the polka-dot jersey.

I don't think that Heras will win the polka-dot jersey. He has his eyes set on winning the tour. It's his big chance this year because there is an uphill time trial, I think. He will be in the top ten on GC, perhaps even top 5. But I don't think he will even come close to winning the polka dot jersey. He hasn't come close to it before either in the Tour de France or the Vuelta. He has done well in the mountains, unquestionably, but to win he would have to do much better. So now we have some predictions to look back on after the Tour.

By the way, Jose Maria Jimenez, another Spanish rider and formerly of Banesto, was one of the best climbers of all time, I think. He was probably top 50 anyway. I think he was a much better climber than Heras. Look at his record in the Vuelta in the mountains compared to Heras. The reason I mention him is that he died, 32 years old, last weekend and was only 2 years ago at the top of his game. To those who liked to watch real mountain battles, he was quite a champion and deserves to be mentioned on this thread.

Winning the KOM is about being an oppurtunist, not about being a great climber.

The question as I recall was who is currently the best climber and
who is the best climber of all time ?
The best climber of all time is in my opinion Van Impe, followed by
Gaul, Bahamontes.
Virenque and his 6 KOM's jerseys, is about as genuine as Armstrongs 5 TDF yellow jerseys !!!!!!
(HAVE WE ALL CHOSEN TO FORGET [censored] VOETS BOOK ??)
The best current climber is a more difficult one.
I'd put forward Heras - perhaps Mayo -

Current = Mayo/Armstrong

all up.... Pantani. KOM be buggered, how many times do you see KOM riders falling of the back of the top GC riders up hills? Question - did RV loose more time in TT or mountains in 03?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kathrin
Who is currently the best climber?
And who is the best climber ever?

Current: Heras
All-Time: Bahamontes, Van Impe

I was a fan of Pedro Delgado when I was young. I think often bad luck down-graded his climbing ability. I think he had potential to achieve a lot more than he did.
eg. what if he wasn't 3 minutes late for the start of his prologue at the '89 tour? Would his climbing ability have been too much for both LeMond & Fignon? I know...we'll never know.

Best current climber: Iban Mayo

Best ever: Fausto Coppi

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Le_cannibale
Best current climber: Iban Mayo

Best ever: Fausto Coppi

We'll see if that translates into King of the Mountains in the Tour. Mayo sure did well in the Dauphine Libere on Mont Ventoux this summer.

You can see how lean he looks here in this picture. The article describes the stage win.

http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6426/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6426_Sto600010.shtml

heras is better than virenque!

in a time trial up alp huez who would win??? heras for sure!

I think a lot of people will say Lance is the best. Well he is right now, but we will have to see if he can show us this year.