Bendybuses

Daniel Roedding said:

Ekul Namsob said:

Is it fair to say that the buses are unsuited to London's streets or are
they inherently dangerous? Much of Europe seems to cope with the things
successfully.

Here in Germany probably one third of all city buses are
"bendybuses" (17.5 meters long or so). I don't think they
are inherently dangerous. We have lots of them since the
70ies and I can't remember any safety discussion about
their usage. However for some cities, those largish buses
require some additional planning efforts from the transport
service companies since on some lines they simply cannot
be used due to small road crossings or roundabouts.

This is rather what I was thinking. As I understand it, for historical
reasons many Germany cities have been rebuilt in the last half century
with wider roads than those that are generally found in central London.

I imagine that New Towns such as Basildon and Milton Keynes would have a
better safety record with such buses.

Cheers,
Luke
--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

Ekul Namsob said:

Quoted message said:

We still have double-decker buses. Twice weekly from here,
and passing within six miles every day. Doesn't anyone else?

We still have them in Preston. I'd be astonished to see a bendy bus
complete the necessary turns to manage the number 16 route round here.

The geometry of a bendy bus means that it should be able to able negotiate
exactly the same corners as a normal bus with the same wheel base as the
front bit, ie the part of the bus in front of the bellows.

--

Geoff

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Iarocu asked:

Quoted message said:

> What was wrong with double decker buses?

and Rob Morley suggested:

Quoted message said:

The stairs.

What's wrong with stairs?

and Danny Colyer contributed:

Quoted message said:

Double deckers have problems with low bridges, but are there many of
those in London?

Not on the routes that used to have double deckers that now have bendy
buses.

It's faster to get passengers on and off bendy buses, apparenly.

They have more doors, that helps.

--

Geoff

Ekul Namsob said:

This is rather what I was thinking. As I understand it, for historical
reasons many Germany cities have been rebuilt in the last half century
with wider roads than those that are generally found in central London.

The road width is normally not the problem. Bendybuses are not
wider than "standard" (short) buses. Problems especially may
occur if a bendybus driver has to turn right from a very small
road into another very small road.

The typical "standard" road has a width of 6-7 meters for motorized
vehicles (one lane per direction). Only the major roads are wide,
they provide two lanes for each direction. "Very small" roads where
bendybuses get into trouble (and are normally not used here) have
a width of less than 5 meters and are usually not suitable for a
fluent bidirectional traffic.

BTW: Although many German towns were more or less destroyed
after WW2, in most of these towns the historical structure and
road arrangements have been preserved/rebuilt, especially in
the central areas. However, new, wider roads have been built
to connect to the city centrals with the suburbs. Also, in some
towns wide and fast express roads have been built around the
cities to reduce traffic through the central areas. But those
wide peripherial roads are not really relevant for the bus
services. Typically, German bus services connect the city
centrals with the suburbs around, resulting in a line graph
formed like a star. Which means most of the urban buses need
to drive through the city centrals and thus often they have to
use some small roads there.

Daniel

GeoffC said:

The geometry of a bendy bus means that it should be able to able negotiate
exactly the same corners as a normal bus with the same wheel base as the
front bit, ie the part of the bus in front of the bellows.

Well, at least the models used here in Germany do need a little
bit more side clearance when moving through sharp corners. While
the front part of such a bus is indeed able to move similar
to a "standard bus", their rear swings sidewise up to 1 meter.

Which for cyclists also means that it may be dangerous to overtake
a bus which is slowly turning right (in Germany) or left (in UK).

Daniel

GeoffC said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Iarocu asked:
>> What was wrong with double decker buses?

and Rob Morley suggested:
> The stairs.

What's wrong with stairs?

It's faster to get passengers on and off bendy buses, apparenly.

They have more doors, that helps.

A modern London double decker has two doors one at the front for
boarding and one in the middle at the foot of the stairs for getting
off. The Mercedes bendys used in London have three doors all of which
can be used for entrance and exit as passengers are supposed to buy
tickets before boarding.

I have used a bendy in Manchester that only had one door at the front.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Daniel Roedding said:

GeoffC said:

The geometry of a bendy bus means that it should be able to able
negotiate exactly the same corners as a normal bus with the same
wheel base as the front bit, ie the part of the bus in front of the
bellows.

Well, at least the models used here in Germany do need a little
bit more side clearance when moving through sharp corners. While
the front part of such a bus is indeed able to move similar
to a "standard bus", their rear swings sidewise up to 1 meter.

Which for cyclists also means that it may be dangerous to overtake
a bus which is slowly turning right (in Germany) or left (in UK).

Yes this is exactly because of the geometry which enables the bus to
negotiate tight corners. The rear wheels on the bit behind the bellows
actually steers in the opposite direction to which the bus is turning, so
that for a bus which is turning left, the back end will steer to the right
to negotiate the corner.

--

Geoff

On 28/10/2007 08:24, Phil Cook said,

Quoted message said:

passengers are supposed to buy
tickets before boarding.

Oh yeah? Do bus stops in London have a little man selling tickets then?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

On 28/10/2007 08:24, Phil Cook said,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

passengers are supposed to buy
tickets before boarding.

Quoted message said:

Oh yeah? Do bus stops in London have a little man selling tickets then?

No, they have machines, for those who don't have passes/Oyster cards etc.

In Central London, you MUST have a ticket before boading as the driver
will NOT sell you one.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Paul Boyd said:

On 28/10/2007 08:24, Phil Cook said,

Quoted message said:

passengers are supposed to buy
tickets before boarding.

Oh yeah? Do bus stops in London have a little man selling tickets then?

All central zone stops and those served by bendys elsewhere in London
have a machine.

http://www.londontoolkit.com/Images/londonbus_ticket_machine.jpg

Season tickets and bus passes are all on RFID (Oyster) cards. You can
also get these for pay as you go and in that case the tickets are less
than half the cash fare. The bendys have readers for these at each
door.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

On 28/10/2007 12:30, Helen Deborah Vecht said,

Quoted message said:

In Central London, you MUST have a ticket before boading as the driver
will NOT sell you one.

Is all this blindingly obvious to visitors to London? Not that I catch
buses very often, but most people are used to just hopping on a bus,
paying and going!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

On 28/10/2007 12:30, Helen Deborah Vecht said,

Quoted message said:

In Central London, you MUST have a ticket before boading as the
driver will NOT sell you one.

Is all this blindingly obvious to visitors to London? Not that I
catch buses very often, but most people are used to just hopping on a
bus, paying and going!

It's not obvious if you're standing in a queue and don't see the signs and
machine.

~PB

Paul Boyd <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

On 28/10/2007 12:30, Helen Deborah Vecht said,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In Central London, you MUST have a ticket before boading as the driver
will NOT sell you one.

Quoted message said:

Is all this blindingly obvious to visitors to London? Not that I catch
buses very often, but most people are used to just hopping on a bus,
paying and going!

Reasonably, if you can and DO read English.

Buses on which you MUST have a ticket before entry have yellow, rather
than white, number flags' at bus stops. There are signs at bus stops
saying 'Buy ticket before boarding', which you could overlook...

I suspect people attempt to catch buses without tickets only once...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Phil Cook said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 28/10/2007 08:24, Phil Cook said,

Quoted message said:

passengers are supposed to buy
tickets before boarding.

Oh yeah? Do bus stops in London have a little man selling tickets then?

All central zone stops and those served by bendys elsewhere in London
have a machine.

http://www.londontoolkit.com/Images/londonbus_ticket_machine.jpg

Season tickets and bus passes are all on RFID (Oyster) cards. You can
also get these for pay as you go and in that case the tickets are less
than half the cash fare. The bendys have readers for these at each
door.

For the inner area, an all-day ticket (from the machine) currently
costs £3.50, which isn't bad compared with the minimum cash fare (£2
per trip).

On 28/10/2007 15:15, Helen Deborah Vecht said,

Quoted message said:

Buses on which you MUST have a ticket before entry have yellow, rather
than white, number flags' at bus stops. There are signs at bus stops
saying 'Buy ticket before boarding', which you could overlook...

I guess it's reasonably obvious then! It's just that it's bad enough
getting onto a bus in a strange area and getting abuse from the driver
for not having the right fare, never mind abuse from the driver for not
knowing you needed a ticket before boarding!

Anyway, just in case I ever do visit London (once in a blue moon), I'll
bear this in mind, or use the underground!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:46:54 +0000

Paul Boyd said:

Anyway, just in case I ever do visit London (once in a blue moon),
I'll bear this in mind, or use the underground!

Have you used the tube of late? I had to use it back in April/May,
and it was four quid from Paddington to Liverpool Street!
Someone there has clearly seen the potential of a fleece-the-
suckers-who-have-to-make-connections racket.

I generally walk through London these days, when I have the
misfortune to have to go there. Fortunately it's seldom
further than between Paddington, Victoria, and the South Bank.

--
not me guv

On 28/10/2007 18:09, Nick Kew said,

Quoted message said:

Have you used the tube of late?

Oooh, I think it was as recently as, let's see now.... I was going on a
one-way trip to drive a car back from Barnet, so that would have been
about 1997, I think. Actually, now I come to think of it, it might have
been 1996.

I did say it was once in a blue moon :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Have you used the tube of late? I had to use it back in April/May,
and it was four quid from Paddington to Liverpool Street!
Someone there has clearly seen the potential of a fleece-the-
suckers-who-have-to-make-connections racket.

I generally walk through London these days, when I have the
misfortune to have to go there. Fortunately it's seldom
further than between Paddington, Victoria, and the South Bank.

I use my Brommie for most journeys but if you do need to use the Tube
its worth getting an Oyster Card which is £1.50 instead of £4 for a Zone
1 single ticket. There's also a new Barclaycard version coming out that
you can use to pay for small items such as a paper as well as use as an
Oyster Card.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Have you used the tube of late? I had to use it back in April/May,
and it was four quid from Paddington to Liverpool Street!
Someone there has clearly seen the potential of a fleece-the-
suckers-who-have-to-make-connections racket.

I generally walk through London these days, when I have the
misfortune to have to go there. Fortunately it's seldom
further than between Paddington, Victoria, and the South Bank.

Quoted message said:

I use my Brommie for most journeys but if you do need to use the Tube
its worth getting an Oyster Card which is £1.50 instead of £4 for a Zone
1 single ticket. There's also a new Barclaycard version coming out that
you can use to pay for small items such as a paper as well as use as an
Oyster Card.

If you do come to London, borrow or buy a Pay as you Go Oyster card
(they are transferable).

Fares on Oyster PAYG are 'capped' at 50p less than the equivalent One
Day Travelcard or Bus Pass. Fares are *much* less than with cash (90p cf
£2 for a bus trip).

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Nick Kew said:

Have you used the tube of late? I had to use it back in April/May,
and it was four quid from Paddington to Liverpool Street!
Someone there has clearly seen the potential of a fleece-the-
suckers-who-have-to-make-connections racket.

Don't through tickets exist any more? I thought if you bought a train
ticket that involved a London connection, a journey via tube was
included.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.