Back to Bigha

Seth Jayson said:

Quoted message said:

Well the same thing was said of the Cannondale bent. Everyone swore up and down that it would
not sell but here it is going on it's third year and they are introducing a Recumbent II at a
lower price.

And you think that proves that the 'bent is selling well? I wouldn't bet on that. Cannondale sells
plenty of other bikes and can afford a money-loser like the recumbent, for a while at least. Ditto
Giant's nifty comfort bike. The issue isn't whether the bike is any good, it's whether it will
make the company any money.

To assume that the cannondale 'bent is a success because it's still around is to ignore the
precedents they set in their recent bankruptcy.

They lost their butts trying to elbow their way into the motocross world. They bled for years on
that division, hoping it would turn around and show a profit. Sure, they sold lots of stuff and it
got great reviews, but it cost way too much to research, produce and market. It didn't turn a
profit, and it almost killed the whole company.

Now, the Cdale 'bent doesn't have the capablity to sink C'dale, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts
that it is not a moneymaker for them.

BigHa doesn't have any other product to support this 'spensif bike. A little brother, priced at
$1500 wouldn't do it either.

Look at the numbers, folks. You need to sell hundreds and hundreds of bikes at that price to stay
afloat. Especially with the kind of overhead they seem to have generated.

I get industry reports across my desk all the time breakind down bike sales. The simple fact is
that very very few people buy bikes priced over $500, and those who do are looking for
performance.

BigHa would need to change American society to break through that wall, and I don't see that
happening.

PS, the Segway analagies are flawed on the face. I don't think they'll be as popular as some
think, but even so, these things provide the locomotion for the rider. American's simply don't
like vehicles that require their own power.

The analogy to the Segway isn't direct, it's more like Segway is to electric scooters as Bigha is to
low performance recumbents. Both are overpriced compared to their nearest competitors, have lots of
fancy electronics and serve more as status symbols then functional transportation. And Segway was
counting on changing American society too. One key difference is that the Segway needs those
electronics to operate and the Bigha has them tacked on as a marketing ploy.

Otherwise I agree with what you say. John Acres has claimed that they spent half a million dollars
on R & D just on the seat! Those full page ads aren't cheap either. How are they going to recoup
costs like that?

Remember the AutoBike? Bigha's marketing reminds me of AutoBike's. The massive ad campaign for the
AutoBike (which unlike the Bigha was a real piece of [censored] but like the Bigha marketed to
non-bicyclists) proved to be not cost effective and they sold one hell of a lot more units than the
Bigha ever will, at that was was probably a much higher markup percentage. It still wasn't enough to
keep them afloat.

I think Bigha's investors have been taken for a ride.

Lorenzo L. Love home.thegrid.net~llloveOpen ↗

"You can fool half of the people all of the time and that's enough to make a good living."
W.C. Fields

"Robert Siegel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ed, you have a soft spot for heavy CWLBs and that's just fine. Everyone's personal choice is right
for them. BUT ... I do not read a lot (any?) from folks who are overjoyed because they went BACK
to a CWLB after riding any of the more sophisticated, lighter recumbents. ;-))

Gator Bob Siegel

Hey Bob!

How nice of you to drop in! Yes I do admit I have a "soft spot" for CLWB's. They are IMHO the most
practical and useful of all designs. Now you can say you read about someone who went back to CLWB's
after riding lighter recumbents. A light bike is not always a more sophisticated one. The
sophistication of the Cannondale for example puts many high performance designs to shame. I've never
seen a BiGHa in person but I'm certain that thing is off the chart!

Currently, I ride a Scooterbike to and from work. I no longer own a motor vehicle. It is nicely
appointed. I've also used it for club rides and have never had problems keeping speeds of 16 mph
or more out on the open road. That's with fenders, rack, panniers (I don't take them off for club
rides), generator light, diverse "junk" in the rack trunk, yada...yada...yada. It must weigh
easily over 50 pounds outfitted this way but I can wing it like most people would a RANS Rocket or
a Tour Easy.

Well it's almost time for bed. Hopefully I'll be dreaming of my next recumbent:-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

I received the Bigha brochure and DVD a few days ago in the mail; VERY IMPRESSIVE, at least from a
marketing perspective. The photography, printing stock, copy, all first-rate. The bike itself looks
very nice as well, albeit rather heavy in it's fully-dressed-with-toys state. My take on this bike
is that it's intended to be Transportation - the ultimate touring/ commuter bike. It's well-suited
to an urban dweller who maybe doesn't even own a car or have a driver's license. (Wish I could do
that) $3000 is a fair bit of dough for any 'bent, but IMHO, this bike is a whole lot more practical
than a Segway for half the price.

And No, I don't work for Bigha... are they hiring?!?

Byron Simms

"bentcruiser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Foltz said:

I agree with you, Ian. Bigha isn't catering to enthusiasts like us,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's sort of senseless to criticize them for what we perceive as dumb design and/or high
price.

The frame design is reminiscent of my beloved BikeE that my wife now captains. My techno-freak
side thinks all the bells and whistle electronics are neat! Too bad they do not have an intigrated
GPS too.

--
Derek, Burley Canto

Quoted message said:

--------------------------<

Posted via cyclingforums.com cyclingforums.comcyclingforums.comOpen ↗

As always, Ed, you're good natured, candid and make a good case for liking what you like. I commend
and respect you for it. Hang in there!

In the unimaginable event I didn't own a car and rode my bike as much as you apparently do, I
probably could move a 50 pound bike at a 16 mph average. However, to stay in shape (or whatever
"shape" 75 years allows) I prefer to swim, work out and ride my Ti Rush just for fun. And drive
where and when I need to drive. Gator Bob Siegel

"Edward Wong" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Siegel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ed, you have a soft spot for heavy CWLBs and that's just fine.

Everyone's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

personal choice is right for them. BUT ... I do not read a lot (any?)

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

folks who are overjoyed because they went BACK to a CWLB after riding

any of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the more sophisticated, lighter recumbents. ;-))

Bigha does seem very well backed finacially. I'm not sure who the deep pockets are, but at some
point they're going to want some good ol' ROI. A very risky strategy to try selling direct with no
dealer network. Who's going to work on these bikes when you have a warranty problem? What is the
Customer Service/support going to be like? What if a few hundred people take them up on the 60-day
free trial thing, and then decide that it's not for them? Ouch! It does seem like they are trying
for some kind of transportation paradigm shift. I wish them well, but it's tough to imagine in
today's Land of the Almighty SUV.

I like the "Ocean" color best, though Sage is kinda nice too....

Byron Simms

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

<lotsa snips>

Quoted message said:

I think that Bigha have pitched their product just right,

..............I

Quoted message said:

could see >execs not being embarrassed to turn up to business meetings on this >machine,
............................ good luck to Bigha.

I have this vision of the directors of General Motors, in their Seville

Row

Quoted message said:

suits, arriving at their board meeting on Bighas. Each of them has a different color Bigha. The
meeting has to be delayed because the directors are outside having a wonderful time riding their
Bighas around the empty parking lot.

Possibly within Bigha is the potential to change our world as we know it.

skip

[email hidden] (Seth Jayson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well the same thing was said of the Cannondale bent. Everyone swore up and down that it would
not sell but here it is going on it's third year and they are introducing a Recumbent II at a
lower price.

And you think that proves that the 'bent is selling well? I wouldn't bet on that. Cannondale sells
plenty of other bikes and can afford a money-loser like the recumbent, for a while at least. Ditto
Giant's nifty comfort bike. The issue isn't whether the bike is any good, it's whether it will
make the company any money.

To assume that the cannondale 'bent is a success because it's still around is to ignore the
precedents they set in their recent bankruptcy.

They lost their butts trying to elbow their way into the motocross world. They bled for years on
that division, hoping it would turn around and show a profit. Sure, they sold lots of stuff and it
got great reviews, but it cost way too much to research, produce and market. It didn't turn a
profit, and it almost killed the whole company.

Now, the Cdale 'bent doesn't have the capablity to sink C'dale, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts
that it is not a moneymaker for them.

BigHa doesn't have any other product to support this 'spensif bike. A little brother, priced at
$1500 wouldn't do it either.

Look at the numbers, folks. You need to sell hundreds and hundreds of bikes at that price to stay
afloat. Especially with the kind of overhead they seem to have generated.

I get industry reports across my desk all the time breakind down bike sales. The simple fact is
that very very few people buy bikes priced over $500, and those who do are looking for
performance.

BigHa would need to change American society to break through that wall, and I don't see that
happening.

PS, the Segway analagies are flawed on the face. I don't think they'll be as popular as some
think, but even so, these things provide the locomotion for the rider. American's simply don't
like vehicles that require their own power.

Well Mr. Jayson,

Your method of analysis is flawed. Cannondale sold their first run of recumbents within the first
few months after introducing them. Proof of this was I think back in 2001 and they actually had to
list the 2002 model on their website BEFORE any other 2002 model in their line. The sales of these
bikes at our local Cannondale dealer have been brisk to say the least. You said it yourself, the
motor division is probably what put them in the bind in the first place. I don't think they are
going to keep any model line that is not profitable from now on. It is probable that they haven't
recovered their R&D on this bike yet but we'll wait and see. I don't know why this bike offends so
many people on this ng. I believe some of you are bitter that it didn't sink right away but that's
just another "conspiracy theory" of mine. Giant is doing quite well with the Revive. I ordered one
and it's having to be back ordered due to demand.

The assertion that people who spend over $500 want performance would be true for those in the market
for a road bike, not a recumbent. The major force behind recumbent sales is comfort and baby boomers
are willing to spend the money to get what they want. Any manufacturer that wants to be a major
player in the next 10, 20 years or more will be foolish to ignore that trend. Comfort is king as the
last Interbike demonstrated and that "wall" you mentioned that needs to be broken may come to be in
that not too distant future.

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

Edward Wong must be edykated coz e writed:

Quoted message said:

Hey Bob!

How nice of you to drop in! Yes I do admit I have a "soft spot" for CLWB's. They are IMHO the most
practical and useful of all designs. Now you can say you read about someone who went back to
CLWB's after riding lighter recumbents. A light bike is not always a more sophisticated one. The
sophistication of the Cannondale for example puts many high performance designs to shame. I've
never seen a BiGHa in person but I'm certain that thing is off the chart!

Currently, I ride a Scooterbike to and from work. I no longer own a motor vehicle. It is nicely
appointed. I've also used it for club rides and have never had problems keeping speeds of 16 mph
or more out on the open road. That's with fenders, rack, panniers (I don't take them off for club
rides), generator light, diverse "junk" in the rack trunk, yada...yada...yada. It must weigh
easily over 50 pounds outfitted this way but I can wing it like most people would a RANS Rocket or
a Tour Easy.

Well it's almost time for bed. Hopefully I'll be dreaming of my next recumbent:-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

Edward, the Scooter bikes look good, we were interested in selling the Scootertrike but of course
Kynast have gone bankrupt, we are talking with the German builder of the trikes still but I think
the two wheeler was manufactured in Korea so I imagine that is another one gone.

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Edward, the Scooter bikes look good, we were interested in selling the Scootertrike but of course
Kynast have gone bankrupt, we are talking with the German builder of the trikes still but I think
the two wheeler was manufactured in Korea so I imagine that is another one gone.

Well I guess I have another "collectable" to go right along side my ReBike:-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

"Robert Siegel" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

However, to stay in shape (or whatever "shape" 75 years allows) I prefer

to

Quoted message said:

swim, work out and ride my Ti Rush just for fun. And drive where and when

I

Quoted message said:

need to drive.

Gator, right on, ~~~al.kubeluis..md.usa.earth.sun.milkyway.virgo.universe..corsa~~~

Quoted message said:

And people are buying Cannondale recumbents, at least a few, because Cannondale is a company with a
good reputation, it doesn't cost $3000 and it doesn't weight 50 pounds. Who is buying Bighas?

Cannondale also went bankrupt not too long ago... Just throwing that out there... Bryan J. Ball
Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

Quoted message said:

I think Bigha's investors have been taken for a ride.

There is only one "investor" in BigHa. John Acres.

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

The analysis is not flawed -- though your reading of it may be. And BTW, I don't consider it much of
an analysis, just some speculation informed by a casual knowledge of some folks in the industry and
quite a few bike dealers.

First of all, you can drop the conspiracy theories. I love both Cannondale and Giant -- you can do a
search here and see my compliments on the Revivie, for instance. But none of that means that these
bikes are profitable, and that's what I'm theorizing about.

First you suggest that Cannondale's bent sales are going great. That may be true, and it may not. I
haven't seen the numbers. And FYI, numbers out the factory don't mean much if the dealers can't get
them off the floor, and I know dealers who've been sitting on the same C'dale recumbents for over a
year. Show me some showroom sales figures.

Next, you should not keep suggesting that sales are a sign of success. That's simply not true. There
are plenty of companies that sell lots of product, but they're certainly not profitable.
(Cannondale, for instance, the last few years.)

As an investor, cash flow is one of the most important criteria I look for in a company, because
companies that aren't raking in cash are going to fail, (and, as mentioned, Cannondale has a history
of supporting unprofitable products in the hopes of increased market share and future productivity,
but the record shows that they've poorly managed their bennies.)

I believe Cannondale will continue making their 'bents because they can afford to support the
endeavor, even if it's not profitable, as I imagine it isn't. Good for them. People who aren't
concerned with going fast will probably like their 'bent. In the mean time, maybe they'll teach the
'bent world an interesting thing or two.

I hope the guys at BigHa can convince everyone in America to buy their bike and ditch their cars.
I'd love it. But, unfortunately, I believe BigHa will be out of business in two years, suffering the
same fate as one of my favorite companies, NovaCruz, makers of the Xootr scooter. (They were also
media darlings with a nifty new wheeled product, but they spent too much and could not make the
thing pay off.)

The only reason I even bother to think much about BigHa is that those full page ads have gotten a
lot of people asking me (the only 'bentie they know) about the bike. I tell them all what I think:
It looks comfy and fun, but slow. But go ahead and order one, since there's a money-back guarantee.

Here's my final word. I ride a ton these days, in traffic and at events. The vast majority of 'bents
I see (80% or so) are a thousand bucks or less in price, Bike Es, Suns, Rans. The next 15% or are
bikes in the $1,000 to $1,700 range, Rans, Bacchetta, Various Trikes, Tour Easy. After that, there's
a variety of high-end fast stuff.

This suggests to me that the industry's analysis of its own market is pretty close to true, that is,
that few people buy bikes of more than a certain price, and that those who do spend more are looking
for performance of a specific type. In the DF world, the threshold is about $500. In the 'bent
world, I'm guessing it's much higher, maybe $1,100.

BentRider said:

Quoted message said:

And people are buying Cannondale recumbents, at least a few, because Cannondale is a company with
a good reputation, it doesn't cost $3000 and it doesn't weight 50 pounds. Who is buying Bighas?

Cannondale also went bankrupt not too long ago... Just throwing that out there... Bryan J. Ball
Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties. The people at BikeE
just locked the doors and ran, screwing over both dealers and customers. Now many of those same
people are running Bigha. Which company would you trust?

Lorenzo L. Love home.thegrid.net~llloveOpen ↗

“We must complain. Yes, plain, blunt complaint, ceaseless agitation, unfailing exposure of
dishonesty and wrong -- this is the ancient, unerring way to liberty and we must follow it.” --W.
E. B. Dubois

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties. The people at
BikeE just locked the doors and ran, screwing over both dealers and customers. Now many of those
same people are running Bigha. Which company would you trust?

Lorenzo L. Love home.thegrid.net~llloveOpen ↗

“We must complain. Yes, plain, blunt complaint, ceaseless agitation, unfailing exposure of
dishonesty and wrong -- this is the ancient, unerring way to liberty and we must follow it.”
--W. E. B. Dubois

John Acres stands to lose a bundle with Bigha which makes me wonder.. If he was throwing money at
BikeE, why didn't they decide to save BikeE? If he has all this money to invest in Bigha, why
couldn't he have bailed out a company that was selling more recumbents than any other? He could have
sold his Bigha as a high end BikeE through a well established network of dealers. Instead, BikeE put
the screws to a loyal dealer network and customer base. I guess I don't get it, but I wouldn't do
business with that company (Bigha) even if they made an interesting bike. I know all of this has
been ralked to death before, but I just don't get why anyone would be intereted in taking a chance
on a Bigha which is sure to be an orphan before you wear out its first set of tires.

--
___________________
John Rooker KC2KQT Rochester, NY

Quoted message said:

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties.

Fair enough...

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

I THINK John left BikeE to start BiGHA before BikeE finally closed.

John Rooker said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties. The people at
BikeE just locked the doors and ran, screwing over both dealers and customers. Now many of those
same people are running Bigha. Which company would you trust?

Lorenzo L. Love home.thegrid.net~llloveOpen ↗

“We must complain. Yes, plain, blunt complaint, ceaseless agitation, unfailing exposure of
dishonesty and wrong -- this is the ancient, unerring way to liberty and we must follow it.”
--W. E. B. Dubois

John Acres stands to lose a bundle with Bigha which makes me wonder.. If he was throwing money at
BikeE, why didn't they decide to save BikeE? If he has all this money to invest in Bigha, why
couldn't he have bailed out a company that was selling more recumbents than any other? He could
have sold his Bigha as a high end BikeE through a well established network of dealers. Instead,
BikeE put the screws to a loyal dealer network and customer base. I guess I don't get it, but I
wouldn't do business with that company (Bigha) even if they made an interesting bike. I know all of
this has been ralked to death before, but I just don't get why anyone would be intereted in taking
a chance on a Bigha which is sure to be an orphan before you wear out its first set of tires.

--
___________________
John Rooker KC2KQT Rochester, NY

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

"Seth Jayson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I hope the guys at BigHa can convince everyone in America to buy their bike and ditch their cars.
I'd love it. But, unfortunately, I believe BigHa will be out of business in two years, suffering
the same fate as one of my favorite companies, NovaCruz, makers of the Xootr scooter. (They were
also media darlings with a nifty new wheeled product, but they spent too much and could not make
the thing pay off.)

NovaCruz appears to still be in business.

novacruz.comdefault.aspOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I THINK John left BikeE to start BiGHA before BikeE finally closed.

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

OK, that makes sense, but BikeE was a bigger loss the the rcumbent community that the loss of Bigha
is going to be. 🙂

--
___________________
John Rooker KC2KQT Rochester, NY

[email hidden] ('BentRider) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties.

Fair enough...

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

The point here is Cannondale is STILL in business. If they had gone completely under, would they be
around to support their dealers and honor their warranties? I think not. When a company is gone,
it's gone. In today's economy, I don't think too many companies give a two week notice.

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

"Edward Wong" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] ('BentRider) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But Cannondale is still supporting their dealers and honoring their warranties.

Fair enough...

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

The point here is Cannondale is STILL in business. If they had gone completely under, would they
be around to support their dealers and honor their warranties? I think not. When a company is
gone, it's gone. In today's economy, I don't think too many companies give a two week notice.

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

True.

Was there a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy filing for Bike E when they went out of business? Or were all their
debts satisfied when they closed down?

skip