Road Cycling · Public discussion

any info on bikable "sand-seal" shoulder surface (NC)

Started by Dan Baker · · Last activity · 5 posts · 639 views

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14 June 2004
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30 June 2004
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Dan Baker
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  1. There are a couple re-surfacing projects contemplated in
    New Mexico right now where the design engineers are
    considering some type of "sand-seal" surface treatment for
    the shoulder. The idea is that having a "dirt-colored"
    shoulder provides visual separation from the traffic lane,
    might slow traffic a little since it would make the road
    look narrower, and if done "properly" would provide a
    smooth high-friction bikable surface.

    The problem is that none of the NMDOT engineers have ever
    specified or used a sand-seal treatment, and dont know
    exactly what to do to create a good surface for bikes. All
    they know how to do is horrible "chunk-and-seal."

    I found some specs on the NCDOT website, which leads me to
    believe that they may do this type of surfacing.... My
    question to ya'll is whether it is a good ridable surface?
    feedback on this?

    anybody have any other examples, specs, or feedback on a "dirt-
    colored" shoulder that could be installed adjacent to a
    "regular" asphalt traffic lane without affecting drainage or
    creating an unbikable grade separation?

    thanks,

    Dan

  2. [email hidden] (dan baker) wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    anybody have any other examples, specs, or feedback on a
    "dirt-colored" shoulder that could be installed adjacent
    to a "regular" asphalt traffic lane without affecting
    drainage or creating an unbikable grade separation?
    --------------

    nothing? nobody has encountered colored asphalt
    shoulders anywhere?

    d

  3. (dan baker) said:

    nothing? nobody has encountered colored asphalt shoulders
    anywhere?

    In certain areas of Massachusetts, I've seen _huge_ green
    shoulders on a freeway. I believe it was route 2 or 190,
    north/west of Worcester, or route 290. The road is two lanes
    wide, with probably two to six lanes worth of green pavement
    on one or both sides.

    In considering why they exist, I figure it may be for future
    expansion and/or snow removal (gotta put it somewhere!).
    They appear to be painted green, not dyed, and some areas
    have faded a bit, but they get the point across that it's
    not an area to drive on.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  4. dan baker said:

    [email hidden] (dan baker) wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    anybody have any other examples, specs, or feedback on a
    "dirt-colored" shoulder that could be installed adjacent
    to a "regular" asphalt traffic lane without affecting
    drainage or creating an unbikable grade separation?
    --------------

    nothing? nobody has encountered colored asphalt shoulders
    anywhere?

    d

    dot.state.fl.usped bike reports
    .htm#Red%20Shoulders

    is a study evaluating red shoulders. I haven't examined it
    closely, but I would be very dubious of any findings and
    conclusions. The study was performed by UNC Highway Safety
    Research Center, my former place of employment, and their
    track record on bicycling research is terrible. I've
    critiqued several noteworthy papers of theirs, including a
    couple I worked on, and shown that they are methodologically
    weak/garbage and the conclusions unsupported.

    Here's what ITE thinks about lane narrowing. And though it
    is not quite the same as shoulder coloring, it is in the
    same category of psychoperceptual control.

    Traffic Calming: State of the Practice ITE/FHWA, August 1999
    ite.orgtcstate.htm

    ISBN 0-935403-36-1 © 1999 Institute of Transportation
    Engineers. All rights reserved. Publication No. IR-098

    ite.orgChapter5c.pdf

    “Painting an edgeline several feet from the pavement edge
    has the effect of visually narrowing the roadway. A
    double yellow line striped down the center of roadway
    might have a comparable effect, visually limiting drivers
    to half of the road.

    In theory, the perceived narrowing could cause a modest
    speed reduction, just as a real narrowing causes a modest
    speed reduction. The theory is not borne out by empirical
    studies. Results from Howard County, MD, Beaverton, OR,
    and San Antonio, TX, suggest that vehicle operating
    speeds are as likely to increase as decrease with
    striping. One explanation is that centerlines and
    edgelines define the vehicle travel path more clearly,
    creating a gun barrel effect.

    Results from the aforementioned studies could be dismissed
    because even with the narrowings, pavement and lane widths
    remained substantial. Yet, results from Orlando, FL, where
    travel lanes were taken down to 9 feet, showed speeds to be
    unaffected (see figure 5.47).27 This psychoperception
    control was not “tricking” anyone and hence was removed from
    both the centerline and edgelines."

    I live in NC and haven't seen colored shoulders. That is not
    to say they don't exist here though. Its a big state and I
    haven't biked everywhere.

    I personally would strongly argue against them though. NMDOT
    is trying to save money at bicyclists' expense. Any shoulder
    where bicycle travel is expected/encouraged should be the
    same pavement quality as the standard lane. I can't imagine
    that a sand sealed surface wouldn't be worse, and eventually
    result in sand coming loose and being slippery. And why
    would they think that bicyclists need extra traction beyond
    a normal ashpalt? Sounds like they are rationalizing cheap
    pavement to me.

    Wayne www.humantransport.org

  5. Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    dan baker said:

    [email hidden] (dan baker) wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    anybody have any other examples, specs, or feedback on a
    "dirt-colored" shoulder that could be installed adjacent
    to a "regular" asphalt traffic lane without affecting
    drainage or creating an unbikable grade separation?
    ......


    I personally would strongly argue against them though.
    NMDOT is trying to save money at bicyclists' expense. Any
    shoulder where bicycle travel is expected/encouraged
    should be the same pavement quality as the standard lane.
    I can't imagine that a sand sealed surface wouldn't be
    worse, and eventually result in sand coming loose and
    being slippery. And why would they think that bicyclists
    need extra traction beyond a normal ashpalt? Sounds like
    they are rationalizing cheap pavement to me. Wayne
    www.humantransport.org


    -----------------------------------------

    actually, they are not trying to take the cheapest way out
    (this time). they are even willing to spend slightly MORE
    that "regular" OFC asphalt for the shoulders, if they can
    specify a solution that meets criteria.

    To the credit of NMDOT, they have been working with me to
    make sure the surface IS bikable (smooth, not loose, and high-
    friction) before they install it [censored] nilly. They are
    attempting to balance the desire and demand from us bikers
    to have a shoulder, with the hue and cry from semi-rural
    residents and historical committees who voice the desire to
    stick with 20' wide roads with NO shoulders to minimize
    "visual impact" and cost.

    Some tech specs I have been able to dig up indicate that
    there are specific types of "sand seal" that involve closely
    controlled application of an even layer of emulsified
    asphalt, followed by even application of a fine (#2, #4)
    blotting sand, followed by rolling and sweeping. I just
    haven't been able to find anybody who actually does it, or
    can vouch for the results.

    If I can find some physical examples, and a couple
    testimonials for or against, I would like to be able to hand
    this info to the NMDOT to assist in a decision as soon as
    possible so we can get a couple big construction projects
    finished up.

    d

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