Another Guardian Article - Tangential to Cycling



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"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This makes for interesting reading.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1125748,00.html
>
> I'm not sure how much credence to give him but surely Trafalgar Sq can't be *worse* than it was?

It's utter rubbish.

Here is a taster.

>>>>>

I am not an idle gas-guzzling pro-car throttle-blipping lobbyist. In principle I would walk or
cycle, but it is not that simple. Deplorable street management means that walking is hazardous
and arduous.

>>>
 
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This makes for interesting reading.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1125748,00.html
>
> I'm not sure how much credence to give him but surely Trafalgar Sq can't be *worse* than it was?

Why not? If there were problems getting round it before, how is it going to make it better by not
being able to go round it at all? Frankly, I agree with the article. There are too many traffic
lights and speed bumps serving no useful purpose. Take the bottom of the hill, for example, near
where I live and just beside the Nursery where my wife works. There are now three sets of traffic
lights within a space of 100 yards controlling a pedestrian crossing and two junctions where before
there was only one. You might think the light-controlled pedestrian crossing would be safer when my
wife has to cross the road with a group of children than the zebra crossing it replaced but no, she
finds it isn't. The extra sets of lights make drivers frustrated and impatient, and as soon as the
lights start to flash amber they go, what to speak of green. Before they used to show some patience
and respect the fact that pedestrians have priority on ordinary zebra crossings. Traffic lights
remove discretion and judgement from the driver and turn brain exercise into robotic colour-coded
decisions. There was nothing wrong with the give way signs, ordinary zebra crossing, and regulation
of traffic from the one set of lights that existed for at least the last twenty years - despite any
increase in traffic volumes in that period.

Speed bumps - we have them in the street where I live, and surrounding area. What for? The main
limiting factor on speed is and has always been the fact that the streets are narrow, cars are
parked either side, and drivers need to coordinate and cooperate with traffic going the other way,
pulling in to let opposing traffic pass in order to move at all. Excess speed is a problem on the
main road where there are no bumps, albeit that there is one camera, but not in the residential area
off the main road. We just suffer the discomfort of them for no good purpose.

Another gripe I have is 24/7 bus lanes. In the centre of London, fine, but outside the centre (zone
3 where I live) they are unnecessary. They used to be peak periods only and fair enough, but now
they're all day every day and that adds to congestion too.

So there are complaints that congestion is getting worse, so something needs to be done about it but
the _reason_ it is getting worse seems to be at least partly what is being done! It just seems that
someone thinks the answer to congestion in London is to deliberately cause more of it, and even as a
cyclist I don't like it.

Rich
 
Frank X wrote:

> It's utter rubbish.
>
> Here is a taster.
>
>
>
> I am not an idle gas-guzzling pro-car throttle-blipping lobbyist. In principle I would walk or
> cycle, but it is not that simple. Deplorable street management means that walking is hazardous
> and arduous.
>

But you missed the punchline:

"Take my journey to work. From house to office is only 0.7 miles"

FFS, I walk that far to catch the bus when not cycling.

James
 
[Not Responding] wrote:

> This makes for interesting reading.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1125748,00.html
>
> I'm not sure how much credence to give him but surely Trafalgar Sq can't be *worse* than it was?

He *drives* 0.7 mile? I'd never buy a secondhand car from him - it would never get off the cold
start cycle, so the cylinders will be full of carbon and the oil full of water.
 
"Richard Goodman" <[email protected]> writes:

> "[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > This makes for interesting reading.
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1125748,00.html
> >
> > I'm not sure how much credence to give him but surely Trafalgar Sq can't be *worse* than it was?
>
> Why not? If there were problems getting round it before, how is it going to make it better by not
> being able to go round it at all? Frankly, I agree with the article.

[scythe: more whinging about living in urban Britain]

You know, this is all so much nonsense.

Yes, our cities are hoplessly overcrouded, miserable, stressful places where no-one in their right
minds would live and work. I agree wth you. Why do you still live and work there? Well, of course,
you need a large salary to pay for your huge mortgage, and you can only get a large salary in an
urban center. Why do you have a huge mortgage? Well, because you need to live close enough to your
job to commute through the filthy overcrowded tubes or the filthy gridlocked roads or the filthy
overcrowded unreliable railways.

It doesn't matter what you do in London; it doesn't matter how much you earn. Your quality of life
is poorer than the guy who sweeps the streets in Kikcudbright, your liesure opportunities more
impoverished, and your actual disposable income - what you can really spend after you've paid for
all the things needed to support your metropolitan lifestyle - probably less.

If you don't like it in London, don't whinge, leave.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This mind intentionally left blank ]
 
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Richard Goodman" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> "[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > This makes for interesting reading.
>> >
>> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1125748,00.html
>> >
>> > I'm not sure how much credence to give him but surely Trafalgar Sq can't be *worse* than
>> > it was?
>>
>> Why not? If there were problems getting round it before, how is it going to make it better by not
>> being able to go round it at all? Frankly, I agree with the article.
>
>[scythe: more whinging about living in urban Britain]
>
>You know, this is all so much nonsense.
>
>Yes, our cities are hoplessly overcrouded, miserable, stressful places where no-one in their right
>minds would live and work. I agree wth you. Why do you still live and work there? Well, of course,
>you need a large salary to pay for your huge mortgage, and you can only get a large salary in an
>urban center. Why do you have a huge mortgage? Well, because you need to live close enough to your
>job to commute through the filthy overcrowded tubes or the filthy gridlocked roads or the filthy
>overcrowded unreliable railways.
>
>It doesn't matter what you do in London; it doesn't matter how much you earn. Your quality of life
>is poorer than the guy who sweeps the streets in Kikcudbright, your liesure opportunities more
>impoverished, and your actual disposable income - what you can really spend after you've paid for
>all the things needed to support your metropolitan lifestyle - probably less.
>
>If you don't like it in London, don't whinge, leave.

Wrong answer.

There is no reason why "our cities [should be] hoplessly overcrouded, miserable, stressful places
where no-one in their right minds would live and work" or where you "commute through the filthy
overcrowded tubes or the filthy gridlocked roads or the filthy overcrowded unreliable railways".

The fact that they are is a result of mis-management and a culture of earning enough to get out. If
our cities and urban centres are to become the centres of cultural, environmental, educational and
commercial excellence that they should be then we need the brightest and best to stay, not leave.

Re-invigorated city and urban life is the key to a sustainable future. People have to want to live
there rather than choose lengthy commutes from the suburbs or the country.
 
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >If you don't like it in London, don't whinge, leave.
>
> Wrong answer.
>
> There is no reason why "our cities [should be] hoplessly overcrouded, miserable, stressful places
> where no-one in their right minds would live and work" or where you "commute through the filthy
> overcrowded tubes or the filthy gridlocked roads or the filthy overcrowded unreliable railways".

You'll agree that they are. And, speaking as one who has visited cities on every continent except
Africa, I think it's pretty much in the nature of cities so to be, although I'll agree that London
is worse than some.

> The fact that they are is a result of mis-management and a culture of earning enough to get out.
> If our cities and urban centres are to become the centres of cultural, environmental,
> educational and commercial excellence that they should be then we need the brightest and best to
> stay, not leave.
>
> Re-invigorated city and urban life is the key to a sustainable future. People have to want to live
> there rather than choose lengthy commutes from the suburbs or the country.

Packing people together is not an end in itself. Just because our Victorian ancestors who lacked
modern telecommunications technologies needed cities in order to be able to condict business
efficiently doesn't mean we do. If you overcrowd people, you have great difficulty dealing with the
filth they generate, and you have great difficulty in providing free-flowing thoroughfares for them
to use. And one way of reducing the crowding, the dirt, and the stress of cities is for those who
don't need to be there to leave them.

However, if you like living in cities, your choice: just don't whinge about it.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Das Internet is nicht fuer
gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken
sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das
cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

> Why do you still live and work there?

I cannot actually afford to buy a place in the town where I grew up.

Simon
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> However, if you like living in cities, your choice: just don't whinge about it.
>
>

Country dwellers have their whinges too. Cyclists have their whinges. If people don't complain,
nothing will change - except so far as the passage of time changes things anyway. There is no reason
why complaints should not be made against things that don't acheive their purpose or work against
communal (and not just sectional) interests.

Rich
 
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:05:04 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

previous posts snipped

>However, if you like living in cities, your choice: just don't whinge about it.

Indeed. But equally if you choose to live in the country please don't expect massively subsidised
transport be it public bus or private car[1]. Don't complain about non-availability of high
bandwidth connectivity. Expect to pay true economic costs of utilities and rubbish collection.

I see so much whinging from so-called 'rural communities' about issues such as the impact of fuel
tax and so on. Yet when you probe a little it soon becomes obvious that the complaints are coming
from people who want to live in rural idyll and commute cheaply into the nearest, or sometimes far
from the nearest, town. The "I couldn't live without my car because I live in the country and need
to get to work" brigade.

I have an interest to declare here. I grew up in the country before it was fashionable. It
wasn't that long ago but at the time there were about 20 semi-derelict houses on the main road
and there were 3 farms in the village centre. It's full of commuters now. The houses are
gentrified and unaffordable. The farms are gone and have been developed for v. big houses. And
my mum gets complaints that her cockrells are too loud for people seeking rural bliss. Anyway,
that's my axe ground.

But there is a real point. If we are to tax environmentally destructive transport - and we should -
then the consequence is that this late 20th Century mode of life will have to end. The good that
comes out of it is that we might be able to reclaim our cities if it becomes harder and less
acceptable to walk (or, rather, drive) away from the problems at the first opportunity.

[1] Next time someone moans about a cycle route used by 'only 5 cyclists in a whole rush hour';
remind them of the miles upon miles of rural roads that are maintained at public expense to
serve single houses.
 
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:05:04 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> previous posts snipped
>
> >However, if you like living in cities, your choice: just don't whinge about it.
>
> <Huge generalisations snipped>

You're not an accountant are you? Only ask because you clearly know the price of everything and the
value of nothing. But keep up spreading this message because it might discourage others from coming
out here and turning our rural bliss into grey suburbia.

--
Chris
 
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:35:36 -0000, "Richard Goodman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Country dwellers have their whinges too.

Usually that it takes half an hour in the Range Rover to get to Sainsbury's to buy the week's
shopping, and the other day when you wanted a loaf of bread at short notice the local shop had
closed down...

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> writes:

> Indeed. But equally if you choose to live in the country please don't expect massively subsidised
> transport be it public bus or private car[1].

No need to expect 'em, we won't get 'em. A huge proportion of the costs of motoring in Britain is
the cost of congetsion in urban areas, but I've been into a town of over 5,000 people for something
like 8 hours of the past six months, so my taxes are supsidising your urban transport, not the other
way around. Road pricing as an alternative to fuel taxes would benefit remote rural areas hugely,
but we won't get it because most voters live in the cities and wouldn't want to pay it.

> Don't complain about non-availability of high bandwidth connectivity. Expect to pay true economic
> costs of utilities and rubbish collection.

Fair enough, our bandwidth does cost (a lot) more, and we can't have piped gas. For the rest, it's
not significantly different. Water to the village is now piped from Lochinvar, because that suits
Scottish Water - but the old village water supply is 100 yards away, and never fails. Rural Galloway
is a net exporter of electricity, and has been since the 1920s (when the hydro power scheme was
developed by a consortium of local landowners); cut us off from the grid and the cost of our
electricity (which is all green) would drop. For that matter when our new local windfarm is
completed, the power from it will be connected to the grid the other side of the Solway, because
Scotland already exports so much electricity to England that the cross border grid lines are
overloaded.

> I see so much whinging from so-called 'rural communities' about issues such as the impact of fuel
> tax and so on. Yet when you probe a little it soon becomes obvious that the complaints are coming
> from people who want to live in rural idyll and commute cheaply into the nearest, or sometimes far
> from the nearest, town.

We used to go into a town once a week to shop. These days, we go in very rarely, and increasingly
often by bike. When we do, it's usually to make use of services (such as hospital) which have been
centralised in the past twenty years, and which in your childhood or mine were provided locally.

> But there is a real point. If we are to tax environmentally destructive transport - and we should
> - then the consequence is that this late 20th Century mode of life will have to end.

Would that be a bad thing, and if so, for whom?

> [1] Next time someone moans about a cycle route used by 'only 5 cyclists in a whole rush hour';
> remind them of the miles upon miles of rural roads that are maintained at public expense to
> serve single houses.

Yup, we spend too much on our rural roads. Could not agree more. The standards to which we maintain
them are ludicrously high and just encourage people to drive faster. We also spend too much money on
subsidising farming.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Das Internet is nicht fuer
gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken
sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das
cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file
 
Frank X wrote:

> Here is a taster.
>
>>>>>>
>
> I am not an idle gas-guzzling pro-car throttle-blipping lobbyist. In principle I would walk or
> cycle, but it is not that simple. Deplorable street management means that walking is hazardous
> and arduous.

Which begs the question that if he is /not/ a "idle gas-guzzling pro-car throttle-blipping lobbyist"
why he writes a column for "CAR" magazine?

He's right about Vauxhall Cross though.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> writes:

> I see so much whinging from so-called 'rural communities' about issues such as the impact of fuel
> tax and so on.

Nope, not from here. It's all the London-based journos wanting to drive to their weekend cottages on
the cheap.

Those of us who live out in the sticks (West Devon/Dartmoor in my case) would benefit from *much*
higher motoring taxes:
* Make local shops, schools, etc more competitive.
* Stimulate a market for public transport.
* Give us back our roads.
* Provide a stimulus for sensible practices like telecommuting.
* Relieve pressure on housing by making second-homes more expensive for those with no intention of
living here for real.
* Stop marginalising anyone without a car (apart from the poor, we have quite a few non-drivers -
e.g old people).

> But there is a real point. If we are to tax environmentally destructive transport - and we should
> - then the consequence is that this late 20th Century mode of life will have to end.

No need to stop driving for pleasure. Just cut down on stupid commuting and we have a massive
improvement. How many office-based workers need 5 days a week - as opposed to one or two - of bodily
presence in the Dilbert seat?

--
Nick Kew

ApacheCon 2003: presentation on November 18th ( http://apache.webthing.com/ ) Other business likely
to be slow until the next week.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[Not Responding] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Indeed. But equally if you choose to live in the country please don't expect massively subsidised
> transport be it public bus or private

Whereas if you live in London, you have a perfect right to massively subsidised transport?

ian
 
[Not Responding] <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >However, if you like living in cities, your choice: just don't whinge about it.
>
> Indeed. But equally if you choose to live in the country please don't expect massively subsidised
> transport be it public bus or private car[1].

Like London Transport you mean?

Before Xmas I took a cub pack to London. I budgeted for £10 a head for travel inside London , I was
gobsmacked when it cost £0.80 a head, at home that wouldn't get them to the nearest town ( 3 miles
away) let alone travel all day.

--
Marc. Please note the above address is a spam trap, use marcc to reply Printing for clubs of all
types http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk Stickers, banners & clothing, for clubs,teams, magazines
and dealers.
 
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:33:29 +0000 someone who may be
[email protected] (marc) wrote this:-

>Before Xmas I took a cub pack to London. I budgeted for £10 a head for travel inside London , I was
>gobsmacked when it cost £0.80 a head,

An interesting offer, perhaps you could say what it was?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2004/travelcards-day.shtml gives £2.00 for an all zones
child Travelcard for off-peak travel.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
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