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159mph speeding charge PC cleared

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UK and Europe
Published
18 May 2005
Last activity
7 June 2005
Original author
Call me Bob
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48
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  1. in message <[email hidden]>, Tilly

    (') said:
    Call me Bob said:


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4559173.stm

    I don't think I can make any comment on this without sounding cynical
    and depressingly unsurprised. So I won't.

    The law justifies driving at high speed in certain circumstances

    The driver has claimed that he was familiarising himself with an
    unfamiliar car.

    The prosecution claim the driver was out on a jolly.

    Am I convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that the driver was out on
    a jolly and was not familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car in
    the absence of standard procedure?

    Driving at 159mph on an empty motorway at night might well be
    'familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car' but driving at 60mph in
    a 30mph limit looks very like irresponsibility to me.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

  2. Tilly said:

    Suspicion is not sufficient for a legal proof.

    I agree that the policeman was driving in a reckless manner - but it
    may be that with an absence of proper guidelines he was driving in a
    reckless manner legally.

    In the absence of "proper guidelines" wouldn't normal traffic law prevail?

    John B

  3. Quoted message said:

    Driving at 160mph would require a braking distance in excess of
    500metres. Was the car fitted with aircraft landing lights? If not he
    was driving whilst unable to stop in the distance he could see. so
    therefore dangerous and irresponsible, just like the 60 in a 30 limit.

    Streetlighting?

  4. Who guards the guards?

    I was just testing this new weapon yer
    Worship so I shot Harry Stanley dead for carrying a chair leg! In case
    I needed the gun it in the future to protect the innocent.

    You may be afraid of being called cynical Mr original poster but I am
    not.

  5. I don't think police would 'shop' a colleague unless he was *seriously*
    out of line.

    I am very concerned that the magistrate threw the case out so easily.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  6. Tilly said:

    On Wed, 18 May 2005 20:05:44 +0100, JLB <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Tilly wrote:

    e prosecution claim the driver was out on a jolly.

    Quoted message said:

    Am I convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that the driver was out on
    a jolly and was not familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car in
    the absence of standard procedure?

    As someone has already pointed out in this thread, if this road journey
    was undertaken for a legitimate work-related purpose, it would be
    appropriate for it to be risk assessed. If there was a standard
    procedure there might be a standard RA, otherwise it would probably be
    specific to the particular test drive.

    The assessment should be recorded. Producing it in court would go a long
    way to supporting the defendant's version of events. In my own view it
    seems that without a RA either the car journey was an unauthorised
    illegal self-indulgence or it was a work activity undertaken in breach
    of H&S legislation. However, I'm a bit vague about exactly how H&S regs
    (Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations) apply to the
    police, so could be wrong.

    Suspicion is not sufficient for a legal proof.

    I agree that the policeman was driving in a reckless manner - but it
    may be that with an absence of proper guidelines he was driving in a
    reckless manner legally.

    I don't quite follow you, unless you are merely reiterating the court's
    verdict; what's the bit about suspicion? What I was setting out was more
    of a thought experiment than an attempt to convict the driver. What
    other possibilities can there logically be than those I described?

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  7. Jon Senior said:


    I have the strange feeling that cynicism shouldn't so often turn out to
    be right! ;-)

    What particularly bothers me is that I keep thinking I have cranked up
    my cynicism to its maximum setting only to find it's still well short of
    what is required by events...

    Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
    Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
    Everybody knows that the war is over
    Everybody knows the good guys lost
    Everybody knows the fight was fixed
    The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
    That’s how it goes
    Everybody knows

    etc.
    http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/leonard-cohen/82809.html

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  8. Response to John Mallard:

    Quoted message said:

    I liked the comment on R4's P.M. this evening.
    Something like
    "I hope they'll warn us if he decides he needs to test his fire-arm skills
    at any time"

    Um, that was me, that was; in a white-hot rage at the thought of all
    those police drivers who presumably now have a precedent to test their
    skills and their vehicle's capabilities at more than 60mph in a 30mph
    zone.

    --
    Mark, UK

    "'Michael Gilhaney,' said the Sergeant, 'is an example of a man that is
    nearly banjaxed from the principle of the Atomic Theory. Would it
    astonish you to hear that he is nearly half a bicycle?'"

  9. nobody760 said:

    Who guards the guards?

    I was just testing this new weapon yer
    Worship so I shot Harry Stanley dead for carrying a chair leg! In case
    I needed the gun it in the future to protect the innocent.

    Who (In a further OT twist) has also been acquitted recently. A high
    court judge saw fit to overturn the finding of the second inquest of
    "Unlawful killing" returning the standing verdict to "open" and also saw
    fit to rule out an appeal.

    Quoted message said:

    You may be afraid of being called cynical Mr original poster but I am
    not.

    I have the strange feeling that cynicism shouldn't so often turn out to
    be right! ;-)

    Jon

  10. Simon Brooke said:

    Driving at 159mph on an empty motorway at night might well be
    'familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car' but driving at 60mph in
    a 30mph limit looks very like irresponsibility to me.

    Almost certainly, yes. It is quite possible to behave in an
    irresponsible manner legally: cycling in many of London's cycle lanes,
    for example.

  11. Tilly said:


    Simon Brooke said:

    Driving at 159mph on an empty motorway at night might well be
    'familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car' but driving at 60mph in
    a 30mph limit looks very like irresponsibility to me.

    Almost certainly, yes. It is quite possible to behave in an
    irresponsible manner legally: cycling in many of London's cycle lanes,
    for example.

    Are you sure you are not a mole from uk.tosspot?

    John B

  12. JohnB said:
    Tilly said:


    Simon Brooke said:

    Driving at 159mph on an empty motorway at night might well be
    'familiarising himself with an unfamiliar car' but driving at 60mph in
    a 30mph limit looks very like irresponsibility to me.

    Almost certainly, yes. It is quite possible to behave in an
    irresponsible manner legally: cycling in many of London's cycle lanes,
    for example.

    Are you sure you are not a mole from uk.tosspot?

    I'm sort of playing devil's advocate.

    But rather than spout off at the judge for letting the man walk
    unpunished, I'm going further. I'm examining if the law could be
    wrong.

    Surely it cannot be right for a car to be driven at 60mph in a
    residential area, in a non-emergency situation, and without proper
    authorisation. If the judge thinks that it is within the law, then
    the law may be flawed.

    Undoubtedly the police guidelines need to be tightened.

  13. "Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't think police would 'shop' a colleague unless he was *seriously*
    out of line.

    I am very concerned that the magistrate threw the case out so easily.

    Indeed. If said plod wanted to 'familiarise himself' with the car's
    capabilities at that sort of speed, perhaps he should be doing that on a
    closed circuit as opposed to doing it on the public highway... Said plod is
    a tw@t of the highest order and has done nothing to develop public
    confidence in plod. It's a classic one law for them and another for the rest
    of us.

    Cheers, helen s

  14. Mark McNeill said:

    Response to John Mallard:

    Quoted message said:

    I liked the comment on R4's P.M. this evening.
    Something like
    "I hope they'll warn us if he decides he needs to test his fire-arm skills
    at any time"

    Um, that was me, that was; in a white-hot rage at the thought of all
    those police drivers who presumably now have a precedent

    Not a legal one. Magistrates' courts can't set legal precedents.

    R.

  15. Tilly said:

    Surely it cannot be right for a car to be driven at 60mph in a
    residential area, in a non-emergency situation, and without proper
    authorisation. If the judge thinks that it is within the law, then
    the law may be flawed.

    On a general note that may or may not be relevant to this instance
    (I don't have the inside knowledge with which to tell that):

    The law leaves judges with a huge amount of discretion to 'interpret'
    it. This may mean setting aside or totally overriding commonsense, or
    what parliament intended when they legislated.

    And judges are the very heart of corruption in this country. They're
    not accountable to anyone, and above (enjoy statutory protection from)
    scrutiny and criticism except at a very general moan-over-a-pint[1]
    level. Appointment to the position is by a self-perpetuating "he's
    one of us, old chap" process. They fulfill the role of the communist
    party in the old soviet union, but they're far more deep-rooted and
    secure than that was.

    At the law-making end of the system, Sir Humphrey basically says it.

    So perhaps you need to expand the subject of the discussion to the
    system of law.

    [1] Mine's a pint of tea, in the pub of usenet.

    --
    Nick Kew

  16. wafflycat wrote:
    Said plod

    Quoted message said:

    is a tw@t of the highest order and has done nothing to develop public
    confidence in plod. It's a classic one law for them and another for the
    rest of us.


    Ah but now P**l Sm*ths friends can use that exemple as their defence.
    One law for all
    :-(
    Dan Gregory

  17. Mark McNeill <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    Response to John Mallard:

    Quoted message said:

    I liked the comment on R4's P.M. this evening.
    Something like
    "I hope they'll warn us if he decides he needs to test his fire-arm
    skills
    at any time"

    Quoted message said:

    Um, that was me, that was; in a white-hot rage at the thought of all
    those police drivers who presumably now have a precedent to test their
    skills and their vehicle's capabilities at more than 60mph in a 30mph
    zone.

    WELL SAID THAT MAN!

    I nominate you as a urc hero!

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  18. Nick Kew said:
    Tilly said:

    Surely it cannot be right for a car to be driven at 60mph in a
    residential area, in a non-emergency situation, and without proper
    authorisation. If the judge thinks that it is within the law, then
    the law may be flawed.

    On a general note that may or may not be relevant to this instance
    (I don't have the inside knowledge with which to tell that):

    The law leaves judges with a huge amount of discretion to 'interpret'
    it. This may mean setting aside or totally overriding commonsense, or
    what parliament intended when they legislated.

    And judges are the very heart of corruption in this country. They're
    not accountable to anyone, and above (enjoy statutory protection from)
    scrutiny and criticism except at a very general moan-over-a-pint[1]
    level. Appointment to the position is by a self-perpetuating "he's
    one of us, old chap" process. They fulfill the role of the communist
    party in the old soviet union, but they're far more deep-rooted and
    secure than that was.

    At the law-making end of the system, Sir Humphrey basically says it.

    So perhaps you need to expand the subject of the discussion to the
    system of law.

    [1] Mine's a pint of tea, in the pub of usenet.


    The sort of constitutional thinking that underlies the US Constitution
    and others says it is important that the the legislative, executive and
    judicial arms of government are separate. Hence, your observations
    concerning what you describe as the "corruption" and lack of
    accountability of the judiciary are in fact signs of constitutional
    health. Judges in this country are sufficiently well paid that they are
    difficult to bribe compared to those in many other countries. The judges
    also cannot be dismissed or directly ordered by government ministers.
    Again, this is usually seen as a strength of the system.

    Their independence is under attack here (and under much more severe
    assault in the US) by politicians and witless proles who think that
    somebody like Blunkett (ex-Communist Party, hates our judges) should
    have the power to take anybody's liberty from them at will, without real
    judicial process. This leads quickly to the "Peoples Prosecutors"
    condemning people to order on behalf of the ruling party and the secret
    police arriving at dawn to "disappear" people. When this arrives, and
    the UK has its own Vyshinskys, perhaps you will recall your laughable
    assertion about our "communist" judges and realise how fatuous your
    little rant was.

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  19. "Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Driving at 160mph would require a braking distance in excess of
    500metres.

    Quoted message said:

    Streetlighting?

    M54? I don't think so.

    Pete

  20. Dan Gregory said:

    wafflycat wrote:
    Said plod

    Quoted message said:

    is a tw@t of the highest order and has done nothing to develop


    public

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    confidence in plod. It's a classic one law for them and another for


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    rest of us.


    Ah but now P**l Sm*ths friends can use that exemple as their defence.

    Quoted message said:

    One law for all
    :-(
    Dan Gregory

    The deluded [censored]'s response can be found here:
    http://www.safespeed.org.uk/milton.html
    He's suggesting that the Government delayed the verdict until
    after the General Election:

    <quote>

    Call me a cynic, but if this media frenzy that's resulted from Mark
    Milton's case had taken place before the election on May 5th, the
    motorist's vote may have been ignited and the election result may have
    been different.

    <unquote>

    Mad as a lorry.

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