Crown jewel placement (Gentlemen only please)

Fred Fragger wrote:
> The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
>
> I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
> has a 20" frame. I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and the saddle is fitted
> well past mid-way forward on the rails.
>
> Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
> saddle with my crown jewels in the clear rather than on the saddle or dressed to the right or
> left. I'm assuming that this riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> So, should I be looking for on-saddle jewel placement or is it just a case of "what suits you"?
> Would an 18" frame actually make that much difference? Or is it mainly down to the straight seat-
> post I'm using, I notice quite a few posts have an offset top fitting?
>
> Later,
>
> Fred
>
> Nice crisp blue-sky day here after lots of heavy rain. Bikes out ready Lots of cleaning
> later :-(
>
>
Get thee tho thy LBS. Your seating position sounds way out of whack, but a five page written
description won't tell as much as five seconds of looking by an experienced shoppie. They can get
you situated reasonably (probably) on your bike. Think frame size from there if need be. He's all
yours Penny and Kathleen.

Cheers, Shawn

"Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
>
> I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground)
inside
> leg and my hardtail has a 20" frame. I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and the
> saddle is fitted well past mid-way forward on the rails.
>
> Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
> saddle with my crown jewels in the clear rather than on the saddle or dressed to the right or
> left. I'm assuming that this riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> So, should I be looking for on-saddle jewel placement or is it just a case of "what suits you"?
> Would an 18" frame actually make that much
difference?
> Or is it mainly down to the straight seat-post I'm using, I notice quite a few posts have an
> offset top fitting?

Sounds like your bike is WAY too big for you. (I'm 5-10 and ride 17"/Medium frames.)

Since you already have your saddle set well forward, why on earth would you need a seatpost
with setback?

Bill "get thee to a bikery" S.

Fred Fragger wrote:
> The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
>
> I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
> has a 20" frame. I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and the saddle is fitted
> well past mid-way forward on the rails.
>
> Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
> saddle with my crown jewels in the clear rather than on the saddle or dressed to the right or
> left. I'm assuming that this riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> So, should I be looking for on-saddle jewel placement or is it just a case of "what suits you"?
> Would an 18" frame actually make that much difference? Or is it mainly down to the straight seat-
> post I'm using, I notice quite a few posts have an offset top fitting?
>
> Later,
>
> Fred
>

As the others say it sounds like you have too big a frame. I'm 6'1" and ride a 19.5" frame with a
little bit of seatpost setback. If you can't find a new frame immediately that fits you, you can
always try a turned around setback seatpost. Yes they turn both ways. At least my Thomson
seatpost does.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Fred Fragger wrote:
> The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
>
> I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
> has a 20" frame. I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and the saddle is fitted
> well past mid-way forward on the rails.
>
> Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
> saddle with my crown jewels in the clear rather than on the saddle or dressed to the right or
> left. I'm assuming that this riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> So, should I be looking for on-saddle jewel placement or is it just a case of "what suits you"?
> Would an 18" frame actually make that much difference? Or is it mainly down to the straight seat-
> post I'm using, I notice quite a few posts have an offset top fitting?

The person who fitted you with that bike wasn't carrying a grudge by any chance?

I'm a little over 5'10", 34" measured inseam and my family jewels are tucked well out of harm's way.
I ride an 18" frame.

Do you have to take a running start and pole vault up onto your saddle?

Kathleen

In article <[email protected]>,
Fred Fragger <[email protected]> wrote:
>The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
>
>I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail has
>a 20" frame.

Just for comparison, I'm 6' with a 35.5" inseam (34" clothing inseam). I've got a 19.5" KHS and a
19" Trek STP.

>I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and the saddle is fitted well past mid-way
>forward on the rails.
>
>Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
>saddle with my crown jewels in the clear rather than on the saddle or dressed to the right or left.
>I'm assuming that this riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite
>uncomfortable.

Ow.

Basic bike fitting:

First you need to correctly set the fore-aft saddle position. The rule of thumb is that with the
crank arms level, the bony bit just below your knee should align with the pedal axle of the forward
pedal. You can go back from there but not forward (except maybe for track riders or triathletes).

Then make sure that the seat is the right height. The basic LeMond formula is seat above BB axle
.866 X true inseam (not clothes measurement, use a book against a wall and really jam it up there).
Or use http://www.totalbike.com/service/frame_size.php If you change the seat height you'll need to
re-do the fore-aft position.

I prefer a higher seat than the Lemond formula, but not quite as high on a MTB as on road bikes.

If your frame is too large, which sounds possible, you may have a longer top tube than you need and
thus too long a reach to the bars. That would make you want to sit forward and/or move the saddle
forward. That's wrong; you place the saddle where you need it for best pedalling and then buy a
different length stem to adjust the reach.

The other possible problems are that you are not wearing proper cycling shorts, your seat doesn't
fit your butt, or you're just being a wuss about sitting down.

Eric

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:05:10 -0000, "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote: [snip wrong size
frame woes]

'nuff said, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all
and on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:40:18 GMT, "Eric M" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
>>has a 20" frame.
>
>Just for comparison, I'm 6' with a 35.5" inseam (34" clothing inseam). I've got a 19.5" KHS and a
>19" Trek STP.

I'm 6'2" with a 37" inseam (36" clothing), my current bike is way too small at 18". I have the
longest seatpost i could find (400mm) and it's about half an inch over the max point. I'm probably
getting a new bike this spring, it will definately be a XL frame (22.5").

"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QH%[email protected]...
> "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:GtXCb.3001$526.20368@newsfep4-
> glfd.server.ntli.net...
> > The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong
frame
> > size.
> >
> > I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground)
> inside
> > leg and my hardtail has a 20" frame. I'm using a Post Moderne Bracer Suspension seat post and
> > the saddle is fitted well past mid-way forward
on
> > the rails.
> >
> > Why do I think I bought the wrong size? Because I often find that I'm perched on the nose of the
> > saddle with my crown jewels in the clear
rather
> > than on the saddle or dressed to the right or left. I'm assuming that
this
> > riding position is "wrong" as, on longer XC rides, it gets quite uncomfortable.
> >
> > So, should I be looking for on-saddle jewel placement or is it just a
case
> > of "what suits you"? Would an 18" frame actually make that much
> difference?
> > Or is it mainly down to the straight seat-post I'm using, I notice quite
a
> > few posts have an offset top fitting?
>
> Sounds like your bike is WAY too big for you. (I'm 5-10 and ride
17"/Medium
> frames.)
>
> Since you already have your saddle set well forward, why on earth would
you
> need a seatpost with setback?

I was going to turn it the other way

> Bill "get thee to a bikery" S.

> Do you have to take a running start and pole vault up onto your saddle?
>
> Kathleen
>

No, but the set of steps I carry only just fit in my Camelbak and luckily I don't suffer from
vertigo

<snip>
> The other possible problems are that you are not wearing proper cycling shorts, your seat doesn't
> fit your butt, or you're just being a wuss about sitting down.
>
>
> Eric
>
I wearing decent biblongs (Endura) and "proper" padded cycling underwear (admittedly up until today
I was wearing nowt and the biblongs are not padded), the saddle is the one that came with the bike
and I am thinking of changing it. I sit down most of the time

"Bill Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:05:10 -0000, "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote: [snip wrong
> size frame woes]
>
> 'nuff said, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them
> all and on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

So Bill, could a SS cure my problem? ;-)

"Eric M" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Fred Fragger <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
> >
> >I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
> >has a 20" frame.

Could be wrong, but could be at least close to right, depending on other dimensions of the frame.
Sounds to me like you're pretty long in the torso. I'm 6'1" with a 36" (jammed up there) inseam. You
are 3 inches shorter than me, but your legs are 4 inches shorter. I've been on a 19.5" bike with a
120mm stem (medium length) for 5 seasons. And it has a fairly long effective top tube for a bike
it's size, 24.25". Do you know what the effective top tube is for your bike frame? If not, do you
know how to measure for it? In torso length you're pretty similar to my size. I'd be curious about
how long your bike's frame is. What length stem does it have?

> Basic bike fitting:
>
> First you need to correctly set the fore-aft saddle position. The rule of thumb is that with the
> crank arms level, the bony bit just below your knee should align with the pedal axle of the
> forward pedal. You can go back from there but not forward (except maybe for track riders or
> triathletes).
>
> Then make sure that the seat is the right height. The basic LeMond formula is seat above BB axle
> .866 X true inseam (not clothes measurement, use a book against a wall and really jam it up
> there). Or use http://www.totalbike.com/service/frame_size.php If you change the seat height
> you'll need to re-do the fore-aft position.
>
> I prefer a higher seat than the Lemond formula, but not quite as high on a MTB as on road bikes.
>
> If your frame is too large, which sounds possible, you may have a longer top tube than you need
> and thus too long a reach to the bars. That would make you want to sit forward and/or move the
> saddle forward. That's wrong; you place the saddle where you need it for best pedalling and then
> buy a different length stem to adjust the reach.

This is very sound advice. Right on about setting saddle placement first, then choosing a stem to
set bar placement, and abandoning the frame when you find that you can't make it fit without drastic
frankenbike measures (150mm stems, etc).

But you don't really mention rise. Very important, especially if we have knabular irritation. That
suggests that the fellow's gonads are being jammed into the saddle nose because his hips are
pointing forward and down too much. Bar too forward AND/OR too far down relative to saddle can cause
uncomfortable knabulator/saddle involvement.

There are at lease three ways to get rise: Get a stem with rise, riser bars, or leave steerer cut
longer and put spacers under the stem. The third option only is available if you have the luxury
of deciding how long to leave the steerer. New complete bikes usually come with the steerers cut,
do they not?

Mr Fragger, what level are your bars relative to your saddle. Bars lower than saddle, same height
as, higher than saddle? Is your saddle flat (horizontal), tipped back, or tipped forward?
--
Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/
Salida, CO

"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QH%[email protected]...
> "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:GtXCb.3001$526.20368@newsfep4-
> glfd.server.ntli.net...
<snip>
>
> Sounds like your bike is WAY too big for you. (I'm 5-10 and ride
17"/Medium
> frames.)
>
> Since you already have your saddle set well forward, why on earth would
you
> need a seatpost with setback?
>
> Bill "get thee to a bikery" S.
>
>

I'd have to agree, BUT-

Bill, he specifically said Gentleman only! What are you doing here?

Matt (always a gentleman, most of the time)

"Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:05:10 -0000, "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote: [snip wrong
> > size frame woes]
> >
> > 'nuff said, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them
> > all and on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...
>
> So Bill, could a SS cure my problem? ;-)
>
>

Not if it's built on a 20" frame!

Matt

"Tom Purvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Eric M" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Fred Fragger <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >The more I get into riding the more I worry that I bought the wrong frame size.
> > >
> > >I'm 5'10" with a 30.5" (clothing measure so about 32" to the ground) inside leg and my hardtail
> > >has a 20" frame.
>
> Could be wrong, but could be at least close to right, depending on other dimensions of the frame.
> Sounds to me like you're pretty long in the torso. I'm 6'1" with a 36" (jammed up there) inseam.
> You are 3 inches shorter than me, but your legs are 4 inches shorter. I've been on a 19.5" bike
> with a 120mm stem (medium length) for 5 seasons. And it has a fairly long effective top tube for a
> bike it's size, 24.25". Do you know what the effective top tube is for your bike frame? If not, do
> you know how to measure for it? In torso length you're pretty similar to my size. I'd be curious
> about how long your bike's frame is. What length stem does it have?
>
> > Basic bike fitting:
> >
> > First you need to correctly set the fore-aft saddle position. The rule of thumb is that with the
> > crank arms level, the bony bit just below your knee should align with the pedal axle of the
> > forward pedal. You can go back from there but not forward (except maybe for track riders or
> > triathletes).
> >
> > Then make sure that the seat is the right height. The basic LeMond formula is seat above BB axle
> > .866 X true inseam (not clothes measurement, use a book against a wall and really jam it up
> > there). Or use http://www.totalbike.com/service/frame_size.php If you change the seat height
> > you'll need to re-do the fore-aft position.
> >
> > I prefer a higher seat than the Lemond formula, but not quite as high on a MTB as on road bikes.
> >
> > If your frame is too large, which sounds possible, you may have a longer top tube than you need
> > and thus too long a reach to the bars. That would make you want to sit forward and/or move the
> > saddle forward. That's wrong; you place the saddle where you need it for best pedalling and then
> > buy a different length stem to adjust the reach.
>
> This is very sound advice. Right on about setting saddle placement first, then choosing a stem to
> set bar placement, and abandoning the frame when you find that you can't make it fit without
> drastic frankenbike measures (150mm stems, etc).
>
> But you don't really mention rise. Very important, especially if we have knabular irritation. That
> suggests that the fellow's gonads are being jammed into the saddle nose because his hips are
> pointing forward and down too much. Bar too forward AND/OR too far down relative to saddle can
> cause uncomfortable knabulator/saddle involvement.
>
> There are at lease three ways to get rise: Get a stem with rise, riser bars, or leave steerer cut
> longer and put spacers under the stem. The third option only is available if you have the luxury
> of deciding how long to leave the steerer. New complete bikes usually come with the steerers cut,
> do they not?
>
> Mr Fragger, what level are your bars relative to your saddle. Bars lower than saddle, same height
> as, higher than saddle? Is your saddle flat (horizontal), tipped back, or tipped forward?
> --
> Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/ Salida, CO

Tom,

I'll try and answer at least some of your points as well as I can, being a relative newbie.

First thing to point out that my inside leg, wearing shoes, is 31" not 32" (I got it wrong) so
either my nickname is stumpy or yours is giraffe's legs
we need some other reader's measurements to decide which one of us is
"normal" !

My saddle looked perfectly level but I checked it with a spirit level and it's 1/2 an inch up at the
front which I'm guessing won't be helping.

My saddle (when levelled) and bars are at exactly the same height.

I checked my frame size and, measuring from the centre of the crank(?) to the top of the seat tube,
I got 20" which I was expecting

Measuring (horizontally because the top tube slopes) from the centre of the seat tube to the centre
of the head tube I get 22.5" You're right, I don't know how to measure the "effective" top tube
length - perhaps you could enlighten me? I like to learn something new every day!

The stem, measured from the centre of the head tube to the centre of the bars is 4"

Hope that helps you to help me?

Cheers,

Fred

MattB murmured while asleep:
> "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:IB4Db.3490$526.23521@newsfep4-
> glfd.server.ntli.net...
>>
>> "Bill Wheeler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:05:10 -0000, "Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote: [snip wrong
>>> size frame woes]
>>>
>>> 'nuff said, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them
>>> all and on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...
>>
>> So Bill, could a SS cure my problem? ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Not if it's built on a 20" frame!
>
> Matt

I thought it would go away, but with this thread, I have an image of someone shaking everything
gently into place, and sitting down very, very carefully and hoping for the best. Sort of like
putting a bra on, only you don't sit on your boobs.

Penny

> I thought it would go away, but with this thread, I have an image of someone shaking everything
> gently into place, and sitting down very, very carefully and hoping for the best. Sort of like
> putting a bra on, only you don't sit on your boobs.
>
> Penny
>
I don't feel I know you well enough to respond to that ;-)

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:36:33 +0000, Fred Fragger wrote:

> First thing to point out that my inside leg, wearing shoes, is 31" not 32" (I got it wrong) so
> either my nickname is stumpy or yours is giraffe's legs
> we need some other reader's measurements to decide which one of us is
> "normal" !

Definitely stumpy. I'm 5'9" with a 32" inside leg with shoes on, and I'm sure others in the group
can attest to my stumpiness.

Oh, I tend to ride 16-18" framed bikes.

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.j-harris.net/bike/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm

"Fred Fragger" <[email protected]> wrote:
> First thing to point out that my inside leg, wearing shoes, is 31" not 32" (I got it wrong) so
> either my nickname is stumpy or yours is giraffe's legs
> we need some other reader's measurements to decide which one of us is
> "normal" !

In all seriousness, "normal" is BS, there's lots of variation that can still be called normal. But
what isn't BS is that your torso is as long as lots of 6-footers' torsos. I wouldn't call you
stumpy, but with a long torso like that, you have to expect to fit onto a larger frame size than
someone your height who has a short torso. Contrary to popular belief, the way to fit a frame to a
person is to fit the length of the frame to the length of your torso, not the height to the length
of your legs.

> My saddle looked perfectly level but I checked it with a spirit level and it's 1/2 an inch up at
> the front which I'm guessing won't be helping.

Do you know how to adjust that? I would advise perfectly level as a starting place. I know people
who like a saddle tipped slightly back, but if your boys are talking to you, I'd guess it ain't
right for you. If you don't know how to adjust it, take it to a shop. (Or mess with it, they aren't
too hard to figure out).

If you find that your *can't* adjust it to tip any farther forward, it's likely that your post was
installed backwards. I've seen that before. If so, remove the saddle from the clamp, turn the post
around to face the other way, and put the saddle back on. You should be able to make the saddle
slant as much as 10 degrees forward if it's on the post the right way.

> My saddle (when levelled) and bars are at exactly the same height.

That's a damn fine place to start. Let's assume for now that rise is OK and some other thing is
causing trouble.

> I checked my frame size and, measuring from the centre of the crank(?) to the top of the seat
> tube, I got 20" which I was expecting

Find out what your seat height is, center of crank bolt to top of saddle just over the seat
post clamp.

> Measuring (horizontally because the top tube slopes) from the centre of the seat tube to the
> centre of the head tube I get 22.5" You're right, I don't know how to measure the "effective" top
> tube length - perhaps you could enlighten me? I like to learn something new every day!

It's a little subjective. Here's word definition: "The horizontal measure from the center of the
headset to the center of the seatpost. The most important measurement when buying a bike, because it
cannot be changed."

First, find a spot that looks like the center of the head tube just where the headset is on the top.
Take your spirit level, and find horizontal back from there. Measure the distance along that level
to your seat post.

This is subjective at least because a taller fork will make your frame seem to have a longer
effective top tube.

> The stem, measured from the centre of the head tube to the centre of the bars is 4"

If that measurement is correct, you have a 100mm stem. That's short for a bike your bike's size.

Get effective top tube and also get distance from point of saddle to center of handlebar at the stem
clamp. I'm curious about both those.

It may very well be that the only thing you need to do is level out your saddle or tip it "slightly"
forward (if you have to tip it too far forward to keep your package happy, it suggests that your
bars are too low or forward, and it can make your hands go to sleep).
--
Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/
Salida, CO