Quality welds



"JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > That some of you would enjoy this.
> >
> > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> >
> >
> >
> > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
>
> It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!

To be fair to Cannondale you can't make a judgement call on the company
policy on this one incident. Yes, poor quality control and bad judgement
call by an employee. Cannondale had issue a recall of Gemini frames for a
different construction problem once they discovered the issue.

On the other hand, I still remember the Titus Loco Moco that was put into
production with a design flaw. The buyers became the beta testers and had
to wait forever to get a replacement frame that was totally redesigned. "
The love for the almighty dollar wins again!"
 
[email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > That some of you would enjoy this.
> >
> > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> >
> >
> >
> > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
>
> It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
>
> JD


If it affects the integrity of the frame, it would be covered under
warranty and replaced making your "love of the almighty dollar"
comment a false and ignorant claim. Not that that's any surprise
coming from a person who can't tell the difference between a
single pivot cantilever suspension and a URT.


According to Jobst Brandt "It is immaterial, the fault you photographed
is completely covered by the enormous weld. That whole section of the
steer tube could be punched out and not make a difference."

I would take the word of Jobst over chicken little any day.
 
"jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > > That some of you would enjoy this.
> > >
> > > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
> >
> > It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> > real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> > painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
>
> To be fair to Cannondale you can't make a judgement call on the company
> policy on this one incident. Yes, poor quality control and bad judgement
> call by an employee.

Hiring employees who make bad judgements and poor quality control
decisions makes for medocrity at best. That crack was horrendously
obvious and the fact of the matter is that it never should have made
it to paint. Only a crappy company would allow an abhorration like
that to make it out the door.

> Cannondale had issue a recall of Gemini frames for a
> different construction problem once they discovered the issue.

How surprising, a crapandflail recall. I wonder how many they have
had over the years, repeating their own brand of "history"...

> On the other hand, I still remember the Titus Loco Moco that was put into
> production with a design flaw. The buyers became the beta testers and had
> to wait forever to get a replacement frame that was totally redesigned. "
> The love for the almighty dollar wins again!"

Ancient history that has not been repeated. The good bike companies
learn and the crappy ones repeat mistakes time and time again. How
many recalls has Titus had?

JD
 

> Ancient history that has not been repeated. The good bike companies
> learn and the crappy ones repeat mistakes time and time again. How
> many recalls has Titus had?
>
> JD

Recalls by Cannondale:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/firmpr.asp

"The good bike companies
learn" and care about it's customer.

Recalls by Titus:

-0-

No recalled ever issued for a obiviously defected product. No concern for
safety.
Just: "The love for the almighty dollar wins again!"
 
"jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Ancient history that has not been repeated. The good bike companies
> > learn and the crappy ones repeat mistakes time and time again. How
> > many recalls has Titus had?
> >
> > JD
>
> Recalls by Cannondale:
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/firmpr.asp

Let's just show the results, shall we?

Cannondale Recall of ATVs (November 25, 2002)
Gemini Bicycles Recalled by Cannondale Corp. (October 24, 2002)
Bicycles With Defective Stems Recalled by Cannondale Corp. (August 15,
2002)
Cannondale Recalls ATVs (August 15, 2001)
Bicycle Cranks Recalled by Shimano (July 1, 1997)
Cycling Shoes Recall by Cannondale (June 9, 1997)
Garments Made From A Flammable Fleece Fabric Recall (February 28,
1995)
Seat Posts Recall (December 1, 1994)
Bicycle Forks Recalled by Cannondale (November 29, 1985)

> "The good bike companies
> learn" and care about it's customer.

If they "cared", there wouldn't be so many recalls. If they cared
about mountain biking, they would not manufacture singletrack-killing
ATVs (or their crappy motorcyces either). Their "cycle" of recalls
seems to be getting more frequent from the first. Yeah, they really
care.

> Recalls by Titus:
>
> -0-
>
> No recalled ever issued for a obiviously defected product. No concern for
> safety.

Let's hear from all of the owners of those few Locomotos who didn't
get a new frame, shall we? Titus made good on their mistake and it's
ancient history that has not been repeated. Apples are not oranges.

> Just: "The love for the almighty dollar wins again!"

Skew it any way you wish, cannonwhale will always be overpriced
crapola. Your anonymity is underwhelming.

JD
 
[email protected] (R.White) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > > That some of you would enjoy this.
> > >
> > > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
> >
> > It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> > real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> > painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
> >
> > JD
>
>
> If it affects the integrity of the frame, it would be covered under
> warranty and replaced making your "love of the almighty dollar"
> comment a false and ignorant claim. Not that that's any surprise
> coming from a person who can't tell the difference between a
> single pivot cantilever suspension and a URT.
>
>
> According to Jobst Brandt "It is immaterial, the fault you photographed
> is completely covered by the enormous weld. That whole section of the
> steer tube could be punched out and not make a difference."
>
> I would take the word of Jobst over chicken little any day.

A punched out hole would actually be much safer. Cracks concentrate
stress into the ends and the crack continues. A crack can easily
migrate through or over a weld, so in this case I think Jobst may be
being a bit hopeful.
Considering the critical nature of the headtube, which, I would say is
the most crucial part of the frame when safety is the priority, the
frame should never have been painted.
Good bikes are made by human beings, and we all make mistakes, but a
company that uses a replacement policy to excuse a poorly made
product, thnking that most customers will never explore it to it's
limits is not giving good customer service.

cheers

g
 
On 21 Aug 2004 17:46:13 -0700, R.White <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
>> > That some of you would enjoy this.
>> >
>> > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
>>
>> It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
>> real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
>> painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
>>
>> JD
>
>
> If it affects the integrity of the frame, it would be covered under
> warranty and replaced making your "love of the almighty dollar"
> comment a false and ignorant claim.

I'd disagree with that. Only a percentage of bad products
that go out come back. Especially mountain bikes...most
don't even get ridden.

So if you've got a bunch of so-so quality frames, from a
bottom-line standpoint, might as well sell them. Maybe
you'll only see half of them again. Otherwise you just eat
the cost of the bad frames.

I'm not saying that is what Cannondale (or any other bike
company) does, nor am I advocating such a practice, however
it would be the most monetarily efficient.

G
 
JD said:
"jack" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Ancient history that has not been repeated. The good bike companies
> > learn and the crappy ones repeat mistakes time and time again. How
> > many recalls has Titus had?
> >
> > JD
>
> Recalls by Cannondale:
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/firmpr.asp

Let's just show the results, shall we?

Cannondale Recall of ATVs (November 25, 2002)
Gemini Bicycles Recalled by Cannondale Corp. (October 24, 2002)
Bicycles With Defective Stems Recalled by Cannondale Corp. (August 15,
2002)
Cannondale Recalls ATVs (August 15, 2001)
Bicycle Cranks Recalled by Shimano (July 1, 1997)
Cycling Shoes Recall by Cannondale (June 9, 1997)
Garments Made From A Flammable Fleece Fabric Recall (February 28,
1995)
Seat Posts Recall (December 1, 1994)
Bicycle Forks Recalled by Cannondale (November 29, 1985)

> "The good bike companies
> learn" and care about it's customer.

If they "cared", there wouldn't be so many recalls. If they cared
about mountain biking, they would not manufacture singletrack-killing
ATVs (or their crappy motorcyces either). Their "cycle" of recalls
seems to be getting more frequent from the first. Yeah, they really
care.

> Recalls by Titus:
>
> -0-
>
> No recalled ever issued for a obiviously defected product. No concern for
> safety.

Let's hear from all of the owners of those few Locomotos who didn't
get a new frame, shall we? Titus made good on their mistake and it's
ancient history that has not been repeated. Apples are not oranges.

> Just: "The love for the almighty dollar wins again!"

Skew it any way you wish, cannonwhale will always be overpriced
crapola. Your anonymity is underwhelming.

JD
Click to expand...
'JD' the Jackass strikes again.



It has been less than a week since he EMAILED cannondale. I'd have picked up the phone.



Recalls are only issued by companies responsible enough to acknowledge their mistakes.



Most QC checks are done as a sampling of a production run. It is impossible to catch everything,



It is very likely that that frame would never fail. If it were mine I'd be working with C'dale to get it replaced.



I've been riding cannondales for 7yrs, built 3 bikes and never looked inside the head tube to inspect the welds. I've never had a failure in a weld either. I had problems with my Super-V's carbon fiber swing arm. They replaced them several times then replaced the frame with a hard tail of my choice.



You guys should give them a chance to make it right then judge.



Cannondale has a reputation for being at the forefront of MTB technology. It comes at a premium price. You can’t buy the latest race bred ultra light frames and expect them to take the abuse than an iron boat anchor does.



Later,

Mark
 
On 2004-08-25, Gman penned:
>
> I'd disagree with that. Only a percentage of bad products that go out come
> back. Especially mountain bikes...most don't even get ridden.
>
> So if you've got a bunch of so-so quality frames, from a bottom-line
> standpoint, might as well sell them. Maybe you'll only see half of them
> again. Otherwise you just eat the cost of the bad frames.
>
> I'm not saying that is what Cannondale (or any other bike company) does, nor
> am I advocating such a practice, however it would be the most monetarily
> efficient.
>

Depends on the product. My husband works in the harddrive industry, and
because of the tight profit margins, they can't afford high numbers of
returns.

I don't know how much profit a bike manufacturer makes per frame, after you
consider shipping and marketing and all that other stuff.

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain
 
[email protected] (R.White) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > > That some of you would enjoy this.
> > >
> > > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
> >
> > It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> > real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> > painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
> >
> > JD

<snip>

> According to Jobst Brandt

Have you ever sat down and had a conversation with Jobst Brandt?

>"It is immaterial, the fault you photographed
> is completely covered by the enormous weld.

Interesting that he would state that in that manner. The crack appears
to be a HAZ (heat affected zone)crack. While the crack (or "crack like
defect) may not affect the mechanical strength of the weld it will
probalbly reduce the fatigue life.


> That whole section of the
> steer tube could be punched out and not make a difference."

Never a truer statement, but it isn't punched out it is cracked
because of poor welding practices.

It would be interesting to take a closer look at the crack.
Particularly with a little dye and a file, and particularly the
section in the lower right of the picture. There is know way for Jobst
or anyone else to tell from the picture if the defect is embedded or
at the surface.


> I would take the word of Jobst over chicken little any day.

Get to know him better.

R
 
[email protected] (gazzer) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (R.White) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > > > That some of you would enjoy this.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
> > >
> > > It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> > > real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> > > painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
> > >
> > > JD
> >
> >
> > If it affects the integrity of the frame, it would be covered under
> > warranty and replaced making your "love of the almighty dollar"
> > comment a false and ignorant claim. Not that that's any surprise
> > coming from a person who can't tell the difference between a
> > single pivot cantilever suspension and a URT.
> >
> >
> > According to Jobst Brandt "It is immaterial, the fault you photographed
> > is completely covered by the enormous weld. That whole section of the
> > steer tube could be punched out and not make a difference."
> >
> > I would take the word of Jobst over chicken little any day.
>
> A punched out hole would actually be much safer. Cracks concentrate
> stress into the ends and the crack continues. A crack can easily
> migrate through or over a weld, so in this case I think Jobst may be
> being a bit hopeful.

This is conjecture on your part, my part and Jobst's part.

> Considering the critical nature of the headtube, which, I would say is
> the most crucial part of the frame when safety is the priority, the
> frame should never have been painted.

I'll not disagree, but there are times in any manufacturing
process when something is missed.

The Cannondale shop where I worked only had one C-dale frame that
broke in the 10 years they were a dealer. It was promptly replaced.



> Good bikes are made by human beings, and we all make mistakes, but a
> company that uses a replacement policy to excuse a poorly made
> product, thnking that most customers will never explore it to it's
> limits is not giving good customer service.

So you are saying that Cannondale is a poorly made product and their
replacement policy is an excuse? A lifetime warranty is an excuse?

Visit their Q-Lab and get back to me.
 
"Monique Y. Mudama" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 2004-08-25, Gman penned:
> >
> > I'd disagree with that. Only a percentage of bad products that go out come
> > back. Especially mountain bikes...most don't even get ridden.

> Depends on the product. My husband works in the harddrive industry, and
> because of the tight profit margins, they can't afford high numbers of
> returns.
>
> I don't know how much profit a bike manufacturer makes per frame, after you
> consider shipping and marketing and all that other stuff.

Gman put the bottom line out there. Most "mountain bikes" don't get
ridden. After a trendoid buys one and then finds out it's not for
your run of the mill sofa-surfing tragic hipster, it ends up sitting
in a garage or on eBay.

JD
 
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:03:43 +1000, mark_kendrick
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Recalls are only issued by companies responsible enough to acknowledge
> their mistakes.


Not true. Recalls can be coerced <https://www.cpsc.gov/incident.html> or
forced.

The fact that the C-dale's recalls are listed in CPSC database is not a
good sign. There are many companies that have voluntary recalls, take care
of their customers in a timely manner, and it never reaches the CPSC.

--
Slacker
 
> >
> > A punched out hole would actually be much safer. Cracks concentrate
> > stress into the ends and the crack continues. A crack can easily
> > migrate through or over a weld, so in this case I think Jobst may be
> > being a bit hopeful.
>
> This is conjecture on your part, my part and Jobst's part.

Nothing wrong with a bit of conjecture, but it's well known that sharp
edged junctions ,corners and cracks concentrate any stress that exists
in that part into a small area, so cracks do tend tend to be unstable.
Arguing that a crack may be harmless is a pointless exercise, because
no-one in their right mind would ride a bike with a crack in the
headtube.
>
> > Considering the critical nature of the headtube, which, I would say is
> > the most crucial part of the frame when safety is the priority, the
> > frame should never have been painted.
>
> I'll not disagree, but there are times in any manufacturing
> process when something is missed.
>
> The Cannondale shop where I worked only had one C-dale frame that
> broke in the 10 years they were a dealer. It was promptly replaced.
>
>
>
> > Good bikes are made by human beings, and we all make mistakes, but a
> > company that uses a replacement policy to excuse a poorly made
> > product, thnking that most customers will never explore it to it's
> > limits is not giving good customer service.
>
> So you are saying that Cannondale is a poorly made product and their
> replacement policy is an excuse? A lifetime warranty is an excuse?
>
> Visit their Q-Lab and get back to me.

No, I'm saying that a good bike is one that works and lasts, not one
that breaks and gets replaced free of charge.
I have seen more breakages with cannondale frames than any other, but
not so long ago everyone was riding them, so thats not suprising, but
lifetime warranties are not necessarily a show of faith in a bike,
when you consider than many are never ridden particularly hard and are
sold after a few years so the warranty becomes invalid.
The level of riding most c-dales are subjected to is underlined by the
fact that they have been fitted with headshocks for such a long time,
while it is clear that in terms of performance they are woeful.

cheers

G
 
Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsdbe9inam83lxu@slacker>...
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:03:43 +1000, mark kendrick
>
> <mark [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Recalls are only issued by companies responsible enough to acknowledge
>
> > their mistakes.
>
>
> Not true. Recalls can be coerced <https://www.cpsc.gov/incident.html> or
> forced.

Oh, but mark and his anonymous pal are right because they think I am
wrong. The truth of the matter doesn't matter to them.

JD
 
[email protected] (Reco Diver) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (R.White) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Slacker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<opsc14zfnqm83lxu@slacker>...
> > > > That some of you would enjoy this.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94713
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And you thought the hatred was only @ amb.
> > >
> > > It's not hatred per se, but is more of a casual observation as to what
> > > real quality is and isn't. That frame never should have even been
> > > painted. The love for the almighty dollar wins again!
> > >
> > > JD
>
> <snip>
>
> > According to Jobst Brandt
>
> Have you ever sat down and had a conversation with Jobst Brandt?
>
> >"It is immaterial, the fault you photographed
> > is completely covered by the enormous weld.
>
> Interesting that he would state that in that manner. The crack appears
> to be a HAZ (heat affected zone)crack. While the crack (or "crack like
> defect) may not affect the mechanical strength of the weld it will
> probalbly reduce the fatigue life.
>
>
> > That whole section of the
> > steer tube could be punched out and not make a difference."
>
> Never a truer statement, but it isn't punched out it is cracked
> because of poor welding practices.
>
> It would be interesting to take a closer look at the crack.
> Particularly with a little dye and a file, and particularly the
> section in the lower right of the picture. There is know way for Jobst
> or anyone else to tell from the picture if the defect is embedded or
> at the surface.
>
>
> > I would take the word of Jobst over chicken little any day.
>
> Get to know him better.

No thanks. After his emails to me in the webtv days, I've had
enough of the bi-polar poster. There's no need to put on a show
for some lapdogs.
 
[email protected] (gazzer) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > > A punched out hole would actually be much safer. Cracks concentrate
> > > stress into the ends and the crack continues. A crack can easily
> > > migrate through or over a weld, so in this case I think Jobst may be
> > > being a bit hopeful.
> >
> > This is conjecture on your part, my part and Jobst's part.
>
> Nothing wrong with a bit of conjecture, but it's well known that sharp
> edged junctions ,corners and cracks concentrate any stress that exists
> in that part into a small area, so cracks do tend tend to be unstable.
> Arguing that a crack may be harmless is a pointless exercise, because
> no-one in their right mind would ride a bike with a crack in the
> headtube.
> >
> > > Considering the critical nature of the headtube, which, I would say is
> > > the most crucial part of the frame when safety is the priority, the
> > > frame should never have been painted.
> >
> > I'll not disagree, but there are times in any manufacturing
> > process when something is missed.
> >
> > The Cannondale shop where I worked only had one C-dale frame that
> > broke in the 10 years they were a dealer. It was promptly replaced.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Good bikes are made by human beings, and we all make mistakes, but a
> > > company that uses a replacement policy to excuse a poorly made
> > > product, thnking that most customers will never explore it to it's
> > > limits is not giving good customer service.
> >
> > So you are saying that Cannondale is a poorly made product and their
> > replacement policy is an excuse? A lifetime warranty is an excuse?
> >
> > Visit their Q-Lab and get back to me.
>
> No, I'm saying that a good bike is one that works and lasts, not one
> that breaks and gets replaced free of charge.
> I have seen more breakages with cannondale frames than any other, but
> not so long ago everyone was riding them, so thats not suprising, but
> lifetime warranties are not necessarily a show of faith in a bike,
> when you consider than many are never ridden particularly hard and are
> sold after a few years so the warranty becomes invalid.
> The level of riding most c-dales are subjected to is underlined by the
> fact that they have been fitted with headshocks for such a long time,
> while it is clear that in terms of performance they are woeful.

The performance of my Bianchi's rigid fork is woeful, but I'm keeping
it!

I doubt you or I will change anyones opinion. Ride what you like
and remember blind brand loyalty works both ways. Read all
opinions but make don't make a descision based on them.
 
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